Member: Barry D
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Remote Name: 207.34.65.223
Date: 25 Apr 2004
Time: 10:17 PM -0400
(((( First, Condolences to DR BOB's family, we learned today his Son Bob passed away last Wednesday, funeral services were held today in i beleive Mephis. He was a very gifted individual who like his father contributed to both Alanon and AA Programs. As a family we all suffer with the loss of one. Thoughts and Prayers are with you all.)))) TRADITION FOUR...Many people wonder how AA can function under such a seeming anarchy. Other societies have to have law and force and sanction and punishment, administered by authorized people. Happily for us, we found we need no humn authority whatever. We have two authorities which are far more effective. One is BENIGN, the other MALIGN. There is God, our Father, (God of my own understanding) who very simply says,"I am waiting for you to do my will." The other authority is named John Barleycorn, and he says, "You had better do Gods will or i will kill you." And sometimes he does kill. So, when all the chips are down, we conform to God's will or perish. At this level, the death sentence hangs over the AA member, his Group, and AA as a whole. Therfore we have the full benefits of the murderous political dictatorships of today but none of their liabilities. So there is authority enough, love enough, and punishment enough, all without any human being clutching the handles of power. Such is AA's backstop against dissolution, and it's final guarantee of survival under any conditions. For us, it is to do or die. BUT THIS IS NOT THE WHOLE STORY. As our individual and group development progresses, We begin to obey the AA Traditions for other reasons. We begin to obey them because we think they are right for us. We obey these principles because we think they are good principles, even though we still resist somewhat. Then comes the final level of obedience, the best of all. We obey AA's Steps and Traditions because we really want them for ourselves. It is no longer a question of good or evil; we conform because we genuinely want to conform. SUCH IS OUR PROCESS OF GROWTH IN UNITY AND FUNCTION. SUCH IS THE EVIDENCE OF GOD'S GRACE AND LOVE AMONG US. AA Comes of Age Trad 4 Pg 103-106. 12x12 pg 146-149. This is also the tradition that gave us Rule # 62, "Don't take yourself to damned seriously". The principles of this progarm are some thing i genuinely want to work towards learning and incorporating into my life, evidence surrounds me of all the lives restored. i also can personaly relate to how, ""We saw that the group, exactly like the individual, must eventually conform to whatever tested principles would guarantee survival"". Sorry for the length, but i hoped to give this week a great jump start. Maybe it's the EGO driven Promoter in me...Thanks for my sobriety.
Member: Craig L (Dogmanor@yahoo.com)
Location: Aloha, Oregon
Remote Name: 65.102.61.160
Date: 26 Apr 2004
Time: 05:11 PM -0400
Before I came to AA, the world was an intolerable place to live. Nothing ever seemed to go my way, so I didnāt want to play at all. Running was the only form of control I knew. I chose to bury my disgust with the uncertainty of life in alcohol and drugs. It was only when alcoholism finally pounded the crap out of me that I became willing to believe I might be wrong, and then I started on the road to Peace I know today. The idea of group autonomy was frightening. I wanted hard fast rules, which applied to all of AA. Thanks to the 12 steps I have either been relieved of my character defects or become more aware of them. I learned patience and trust in God. Today I go to many different meetings and each has itās own wonderful flavor with our single-minded purpose.
Member: Marv L
Location: Ms.
Remote Name: 209.240.205.68
Date: 27 Apr 2004
Time: 12:41 AM -0400
Hi,Im Marv,grateful recovering alcoholic.Sad to hear of the death of Dr.Bobs son;what a lot of memories he must have had of his dads" journey into sobriety--maybe he even watched AA form on the anvil of practical methods and traditions that preserve it,and in doing so provides a way of life that aids recovery. Good topic; I echo what Craig wrote-theres a lot of diversity in how different groups run their meetings,I learn from all of them,as each works toward our primary purpose. What a legacy has been built by a fellowship of such folks as us,who were beaten by alcoholism,and yet could develop the honesty,openmindedness and willingness to pull together and work the program,not as clones of the oldtimers,but with freedom and autonomy so each could contribute a little to the fellowship..Sometimes I stop and remind myself I owe AA my very life,I had failed in a LOT of effort to stop drinking,and nothing worked. Thank God for the tools AA provides,including this tradition.I thank you all for helping me stay sober another day,love ya!!
Member: jimr
Location: chicago
Remote Name: 68.164.230.197
Date: 27 Apr 2004
Time: 01:25 AM -0400
This all important tradition allows each group the freedom to choose their own message within THE message. Allows each group to carve out a niche in the tree of recovery... as long as the group doesn't carve too deep into the tree and cause it harm. Thanks for this space SC
Member: sarah E
Location: NWUSA
Remote Name: 205.162.15.2
Date: 27 Apr 2004
Time: 02:32 PM -0400
I like this tradition as it has given me and/or other's an opportunity to attend many types of A.A. meetings ... here is a incomplete list ... an open A.A. meeting, a closed A.A. meeting, a world-wide web A.A. meeting, a women's A.A. meeting,a men's A.A. meeting, a young people's A.A. meeting, an oldtimer's A.A. meeting, an atheist A.A. meeting, a smoking A.A. meeting, a non-smoking A.A. meeting, an Indian A.A. meeting, a gay A.A. meeting, a treatment center A.A. meeting, a mental ward A.A. meeting, a Big Book Study A.A. meeting, a Step Study A.A. meeting ... there are many more on the list. It has given me and other's the opportunity of shared Experience, Strength and Hope, the shared Steps and Traditions, and the opportunity to look for the similarites rather than the differences. So, Thanks, one and all for another day sober.
Member: Rarely
Location: rontherocket@hotmail.com
Remote Name: 206.45.166.110
Date: 27 Apr 2004
Time: 04:10 PM -0400
Names Ron. and Im an alcoholic. Sorry to hear about Doctor Bob's son. Years ago I had the pleasure of hearing him speak at an A.A. function and was most intrested in what he had to say about all the activity taking place in his home as the birth of A.A. was taking place. I most remember Smitty as he was known by his nickname saying that if A.A. was founded by Bill W. Bill would have sold it as a franchize. And if Doctor Bob would have found A.A. it never would have left Akron. Our two Co Founders really complimented each other. I would also like to get a E-mail from GARRY D from Calgary Alberta
Member: Adam H.
Location: New York, NY
Remote Name: 64.232.156.194
Date: 28 Apr 2004
Time: 09:44 AM -0400
Adam, alcoholic. Not much to say, but I really want to thank jimr from Chicago for the tree analogy. I think that says it quite nicely. Grateful to be sober today.
Member: LisaM
Location: FL
Remote Name: 24.48.38.226
Date: 28 Apr 2004
Time: 10:44 AM -0400
I don't understand the traditions and what they mean. I don't understand what everyone means when they say they are working the steps. I know in the Big Book it lists what they are, there aren't like any individual explanations that I have seen or instructions or advice on how to "work them". Can anyone help?
Member: larry b.
Location: cal-ore border
Remote Name: 208.19.107.190
Date: 28 Apr 2004
Time: 09:37 PM -0400
he lisa m.-larry b here, alcoholic-i only know what i did that worked-get a sponsor who has worked the steps-read the 12 x 12, and go to a step study-everything you need is out there-get thee hie to a meetin',lassie! good luck, and may God bless your efforts. your friend in sobriety, larry b
Member: Steven062802
Location: Boston
Remote Name: 24.131.190.84
Date: 29 Apr 2004
Time: 11:42 AM -0400
Hi there...I'm an alcoholic named Steven. The twelve traditions are as important to me as the twelve steps. I was told that the steps are for my personal survival, the traditions for the survival of the groups themselves and the twelve concepts are for the survival of AA as a whole......my little worry about tradition four is, at what point does a group's behavior affect AA as a whole? My tuesday night group celebrates Drug and Alcohol free sobriety. I belong to the group, but have a real hard time with it's lack of interest in the Singleness of Pupose. Alot of the members identify just as addicts...I don't want to be closed minded about anyone's recovery, but it bothers me that these same 'just addicts' are going into my closed meetings and talking about drug use and stuff. That's not why I go to my closed meeting. At what point does a single groups behavior start affecting AA as a whole? This is a question that I'm afraid to ask in my groups as my view is not popular...to say the least.
Member: Steven062802
Location: Boston
Remote Name: 24.131.190.84
Date: 29 Apr 2004
Time: 11:46 AM -0400
Sorry, I wasn't even LOOKING at how I was spelling anything!
Member: Adam H.
Location: New York, NY
Remote Name: 64.232.156.194
Date: 29 Apr 2004
Time: 12:04 PM -0400
Adam, alcoholic...sorry to double-dip. Lisa, let me see if I can explain the difference to you. The 12 Steps are the program of recovery for Alcoholics Anonymous and you "do the steps" by taking the actions as they are outlined in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" (aka, 'The Big Book') under the guidance of a sponsor. The 12 Traditions, on the other hand, are the non-negotiable principles that keep the organization together, and they boil down to a few simple ideas: AA's only job is to help the next sick and suffering alcoholic by carrying the message that the 12 Steps work to that sick and suffering alcoholic; ANYONE who wants to stop drinking can be a member regardless of any other qualifications; no one person or group should be in charge of the organization Alcoholics Anonymous or of an AA group--financially or otherwise; because our membership is diverse, no one person or group should speak for the organization Alcoholics Anonymous as a whole; and we remain anonymous because the best way for us to be helpful is to put greater emphasis on what we have to offer to the sick and suffering alcoholic versus who our membership is. "Doing the Traditions" is really nothing more than taking some time to learn about how AA worked to overcome its problems when it was being formed and why AA still works like it does today. A sponsor can help you with that too. If that still seems confusing, think of it like this...the Steps keep alcoholics from committing suicide in the rooms of AA and the Traditions keep alcoholics from committing murder in the rooms of AA. Hope that clears it up for you some. Good luck, Lisa, and take care one day at a time.
Member: AZbill
Location: azbill1172@cox.net
Remote Name: 68.231.160.24
Date: 29 Apr 2004
Time: 05:17 PM -0400
Hi, Bill here. Alcoholic from Arizona. Amen Sarah E. well said. A couple of important reminders. Once you have completed the steps you have completed 1/3 of the program. The entire AA program consists of The Steps (recovery); The traditions (unity); and The Twelve Concepts of Service. (Our third legacy). It completes the triangle and is a symbol of our strength. The traditions are the glue that hold AA together and protects you all from me. It is always best to study the long form of the Traditions and the associated reading in the 12x12. Like the steps the traditions cannot be worked "off the wall". What the fourth tradition is telling us that essentially any AA group can do as it darn well pleases so long as it does not affect other groups or AA as a whole. In most groups it surfaces as the "Group Conscience" Now I do not agree with all group consciences. But it is up to me to move. I can change me; I cannot or should not try to change you. The fourth tradition allows or disallows outside issues. I did not come into AA to change AA. I came into AA to change me using AA as a vehicle. The traditions as whole insures my sobriety. Now there are many ways to get and stay sober. But I chose AA and there is where I will stay. Thank you all for being a part of my sobriety today. Love ya, Bill
Member: AZbill
Location: azbill1172@cox.net
Remote Name: 68.231.160.24
Date: 29 Apr 2004
Time: 07:15 PM -0400
Hi Double Dipping Bill,still alcoholic.. In Keeping with the Fourth Tradition..Very early in my recovery one of the things one of my sponsors did was to ask me to pick a different meeting from the meeting list in Denver Metro. He and I attended that meeting. We did this every Saturday. We would critique that meeting. What did you like about that meeting, Bill? What did you dislike? The purpose of this drill was to find as many meetings as possible that I was comfortable with. It was also pointed out to me that there was no such thing as a "bad" AA meeting; but there are some meetings much better that others. Those were the ones I attended Love ya, Bill
Member: roze
Location: Penna.
Remote Name: 205.188.116.144
Date: 29 Apr 2004
Time: 09:31 PM -0400
wow! i just chaired a meeting on monday nite,on this tradition & i still didn't really understand it. but reading all the shares just made sense. i go to different meetings for 12&12,speaker meetings,big book meetings, and God as i understand him,& 1 meeting in my old home town. sometimes i am so slow. love to all,roze AUTONOMOUS cool
Member: Jenn P.
Location: Poconos
Remote Name: 216.37.202.164
Date: 30 Apr 2004
Time: 05:31 AM -0400
Hi ALl, Jenn here, alcoholic. One experience I have had with tradition four is that when I was newer, and thought I knew everything, I thought my area needed a Big book meeting, and I should start it. One of the things that was pointed out to me, concerning "affecting other groups or AA as a whole" was that perhaps I should think about what other meetings already existed in my small rural area, and see if It would be affecting them. When I looked at the meeting list, we already had a meeting every night except Friday and Saturday right near by, and we had a great Big Book meeting not 5 miles off on a Wednesday night! To have opened a new meeting would have affeted the very small meetings we were already having. I started attending the Big Book meeting that was nearby, and loved it. I hear alot about autonomy, but not much about thinking about how we are affecting other groups or AA as a whole. A few years later, some folks did try to open a Big Book meeting on the same night as another meeting here, and it didn't fly. I think that God is in charge, and if it was supposed to make a go of it it would have, but it may have had more attendance on a night where it wasn't right in front of the other meeting. I can use this in my personal life to remind me to think of how my decisions may be affecting others before I barge ahead and do something that may affect others in my family without thinking of them or consulting with them (getting a group conscience). It reminds em not to be so self- centered, and to take other's into account. These traditions really do apply in my life as well as for AA groups. They help me interact with other human beings.Thanks for letting me share, I needed to be here tonight. I am grateful to be sober, and to have a whole new life. What an adventure!!
Member: Maverick 1
Location: Purgatory
Remote Name: 24.195.208.10
Date: 30 Apr 2004
Time: 02:00 PM -0400
Does it affect AA as a whole that this particular group, as amember of the world-wide web, is attempting to bar and ban an alcoholic from attending and sharing simply because they don't like what he says? Is it becuase he may be if not 100% right on the money to boot, he's definitely got some fantastic insight and a truly beautiful mind, that's a definite. He's got more experience, strength and/or hope than any or all of the others combined, yet he's ridiculed simply because he doesn't "tow the party-line" and parrot the same old thing over and over and over again... He's been sober a long time and many years of expereince with many other alkies as well. He loves God above all things and only seeks to espouse the Truth, even if it is just as he sees it... He has never meant any harm to anyone here, yet they incessantly try to harm him in so many ways he's now fighting back... Is it harmful to AA as a whole that this type of public affiliation should be allowed to be displayed with the AA logo over top of it? Should this be reported to the GSO in NYC and see let them take a look at the level of censorship and control that takes place here and decide? Should this group be totally and completely disassociated from AA as they are unable to control the true thinkers of the world at large? The level of brainwashing making it so clear and giving such a bad message, is it deterimental to the whole of AA to have such control-freaks running a site affiliated with AA? We shall soon see, we shall soon see...
Member: Les
Location: San Diego
Remote Name: 64.12.116.69
Date: 30 Apr 2004
Time: 07:22 PM -0400
Well, there is one thing about this maverick 1 character -- he has the littlest, tiniest, tiny wee wee of anybody in AA and possibly the world.
Member: Bruce Mac
Location: San Antonio
Remote Name: 172.201.51.236
Date: 30 Apr 2004
Time: 11:03 PM -0400
When the group
Member: HalD
Location: Columbia
Remote Name: 172.140.165.159
Date: 01 May 2004
Time: 01:00 AM -0400
AZ Bill, I like what you have to share, but I must disagree with your statement that under the Fouth Tradition you do not seek to change AA. Since less than 1% of the members of AA actually get any real sobriety, don't you think it is incumbent on those of us who are actually clean and sober to change AA so that it will be effective. The rate of spontaneous remission is almost 5% and the fact that AA has a success rate of less than 1% certainly shows that the program needs to be changed. Don't we have a responsiblity to work to enact a program that works and to save the lives of others? Isn't it past time to discard the Bill Wilson program and develop something that actually works? Our members are dying of their addictions every day - alcohol, tobacco, pills. They come to AA for 20 years, 30 years, and more and still can't put together 24 hours of actual sobriety. Surely, you don't think this is acceptable.
Member: larry b.
Location: cal-ore border
Remote Name: 208.19.107.207
Date: 02 May 2004
Time: 02:01 AM -0400
i realize i know only a little-but what i've learned here is that a.a. deals with problems related to alcohol. it never pretends to do anything else. not in any of the literature i've read, anyway. the point a.a. makes for me is get weller, help others. i've been around a few 24's and sadly have seen many members go back out. i can't explain that. i just do not see it as a failing of the a.a.program, or it's premise-that "if you want what we have, and are willing to go to any length to get it---"