Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 07:51 AM

Comments

Welcome everyone new! Thanks Kerry for the link. My favorite part of the doctors Opinion is: >>> Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery. On the other hand-and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand-once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules. >>> I can really relate to this passage and does it ever sum up being an alcoholic. I needed and have gotten the psychic change through AA. I got my life back and with the grace of God it will be for a year on October 1st!!! (Karen A.) I found your post very disturbing. Being a survivor of abuse I can relate but I don't go back there anymore. They have a program called Co-dependents Anonymous you may want to try and find. I have a friend in AA that goes and it helps. I read the book, "Co-Dependent No More", back in the 80's and it helped me to understand that I don't have to stand abuse. Now when I'm around it my red flags go up and I get myself away from it quick. I can walk away and that feels good! We really do get what we demand in this world. Everyone have a great Sunday... Kelly :)


Member: P
Location: NY
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 08:56 AM

Comments

I know this is a little off topic... but once again I relapsed last night. I'm very disappointed. I didn't have fun and I never want to go back to my drinking days.I can't. I'm just angry at myself for drinking again. I was doing so good and now I have to start all over again.


Member: Karen
Location: NYC
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 09:17 AM

Comments

Now it's all starting to come together--poor, poor Kelly, another woman who's the "victim" of abuse in AA. What a surprise? No wonder your post is the one that is disturbing, because you buy the ridiculous feminist agenda. SAD, SAD, SAD, but it will be fought vehemently, so welcome aboard. Are you drinking or what?


Member: av
Location: bz
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 09:23 AM

Comments

less than a year sober huh? No wonder kelly is so brainwashed with that crapola she's spouting.... unfortunately she'll probably only get worse, not better...


Member: Mark W.
Location: Home of the world's largest croquet wicket
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 09:49 AM

Comments

Boy is this topic timely! My wife and step daughter had moved out. I was sitting in a bar drinking beer, waiting to go pick up my daughter at a friends, then take her home to her mother. This life was not going to be worth living, as it had not been for some time. I called AA the next morning, and went to a meeting that same evening. I got the "it" spoken of so often. Wife and step daughter were soon moved back in. I thought I was so happy. I did not drink, but did take my wife to the bar two to four times a week, so that she could get her alcohol. Five years later, the wife decided, several months after I chose to quit taking her to the bar, that she wanted a divorce. Not being the innocent one, and dealing with an alcoholoic who had a good lawyer, I got my clock well cleaned. Life is better today than when I drank. The divorce was a trial, and was a difficult time. During the divorce, the job I had had for twenty five years also evaporated. My higher power was caring for me, and all came out well, (at least how it was supposed to come out). Life continued, and sobriety is still better than running from all my problems. I am an alcoholic, and always will be, but today I will not drink, and for that I am grateful to God. There is a tomorrow, and I want to live it. Is this what we get from AA? It is for me. Mark W. LMW007 at aol.com


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 10:33 AM

Comments

Hey hey hey.... Hello... My post went on this weeks instead of last weeks where I mean't it to be. I have not been in an abusive relationship since 1991. I have dated a few men that I had to let go when they became abusive. Like I said I don't go there anymore. I wonder if that makes me a 'feminist' to not tolerate abusive men? I guess I must be one then. There is nothing "poor me" about my life today. I am proud to be going on a year sober after 13 years of daily drinking. I have a good life now and I want people to know there is hope, share my hope and offer a solution. Karen you wrote yesterday about your situation and I did find it alarming. Especially the video taping sex without your consent. I gave you a couple tools is all that helped me, why the backlash? I just got a handle on abusive relationships before I got a handle on booze. I have a wonderful relationship today with a man that treats me great and vise-versa. Yep, pretty nausiating to see someone else so happy. I was not always this happy though... it took a lot of work on my part. If I only knew then what I know now because it is so darn simple. If you do not tolerate abuse you don't get it. If you expect to be treated well you get treated well...or you move on. You also get back what you give... In spades! Now alcoholism is a different animal completely. Just putting down the drink did not work for me. I need the program of AA to learn how to live sober. As for being brain-washed I am and I had a very dirty brain that needed to be washed. I was brainwashed into thinking that I could not survive without a drink. I thought I could never be happy without a drink and that life was not worth living without a drink. That is alcoholic thinking. In recovery I have found that I am much happier sober and my beliefs were wrong. I can live just fine sober and I'm doing it. Will I relapse? The chances are very high I will drink again. Does that mean I will? Only God knows that and all I have is one day and that is today. Yesterday is gone and tomorrow is a mystery but today I'm gonna get through without picking up a drink. My daughter is coming over to help me decorate, my BF is going to his daughters game, I'm making stuffed peppers later and then we are going to the fair. All totally normal stuff but so damn wonderful because I am sober enough to enjoy the little things. Last year at this time I was preparing to go into rehab and shake and sweat for a week. I was one miserable, sick person and I knew I needed help but did not know how to get out of it. Today I am 150% better. Gotta run. God bless all of us drunks. Kelly :)


Member: We all
Location: have problems
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 10:33 AM

Comments

During their time together, the pair -- who met on the set of "Gigli" -- generated worldwide attention, costarring in a sexy music video for her song "Jenny from the Block" and purchasing each other extravagant gifts, including a Rolls-Royce, a Harry Winston bracelet of white and yellow diamonds and 6.1 carat pink diamond solitaire Affleck gave Lopez as an engagement ring. Nevertheless, they thought of themselves as working-class kids -- she from the Bronx, he from Boston -- who shared similar values. As a teetotaler, Lopez was also seen as healthy for Affleck, who is a recovering alcoholic.


Member: Mike H
Location: Jackson Michigan
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 10:43 AM

Comments

Due to my situation I had to move in with a friend of mine. This friend drinks every day and seems to be able to handle it. It is not for me to judge. It is not a hardship on me because I know this is something I no longer want anymore. Call it a psychic change, spiritual experience, or change of thinking. Not everyone can do this. I feel I have been blessed. It is troubling at times but I just remind myself where I came from and where I will end up if I drink again. Thanks.


Member: sober
Location: for under a year
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 12:41 PM

Comments

I'm a little confused on the terminolgy of early sobriety. Just how long is one considered to be a newcomer? Does it have to do with being in the first year or completing the steps for the first time or something entirely different? Any insight and clarification on the general idea of what early sobriety means would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help.


Member: Beto L
Location: Tampico, Mexico
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 12:51 PM

Comments

I have had no trouble living with people who drink while I've been sober. My wife drinks a little bit, and I have asked my 15 year old granddaughter to drink at home if she wants to drink. Sometimes she does just that. She may have as much as three beers in the course of five or six hours. What I find tough is being around drunks. Whether they are alcoholic or not, after a person gets really drunk they are just obnoxious to me. I stay away from drunks if I can, and I always can.


Member: Pam B - Sobergirl91 at hotmail dot com
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 01:33 PM

Comments

Hi, I'm Pam - an alcoholic. Good posts (((Kelly))) - thanks for sharing both of them. I also haven't been in an abusive relationship since got into Coda in 91 which then lead onto working thru Family of Origin issues & the 12 Steps of the Adult Children's program. It taught me that I am responsible how I am today, to value myself enough to remove myself from unacceptable situations, that others can be however they choose to be but I do not have to participate. - & it freed me of the many possible triggers that could lead me back to drinking due to how twisted my alcoholic thinking used to perceive & react to all those things. >>>>> It showed me how to uncover, identify & discard & change my own abusive behaviors, defects & short-comings. Like attracts like-kind. (Alanon or the Coda Program offer the same help in these areas) >>>>> Today I'm in the relationship I longed deeply for my whole life - going on 7 yrs now. >>>>> during the 1st 2 yrs his drinking & drugging had him continually picking up white chips. I made the choice to hang in there w/him & applied all that I'd learned rather than seeking to make him be a certain way just so I would feel secure as a person - giving all my fears to God in my daily inventory - refusing to participate w/reactions - refusing to enable financially nor to enable w/reactions to the attempted manipulations & guilt trips - nor to give any of those negative feelings that keep an active alkie needing a drink to bury them. How I am is not dependant on another person (ie him) - my dependance is on God & taking responsibility for my own choices & actions. >>>>> Daily prayed for both of us & for guidance, applied my own 12 Steps, did a lot of growing & changing - living my own life rather than participating in the severely unmanageable mess of his. >>>>> He was free to live how he chose but I did not have to participate instead of living how I chose to. >>>>> When I decided one day that what we each want from life is not compatible & we each deserve to be w/someone that we are compatible with - I packed up & moved out to a place unknown to him, worked thru my own grieving healing process so I could emotionally detach & heal from the loss of my 'dream of what might have been' - get into reality & accept it that it will never exist. >>>>> By the Power & Grace of God, he has been clean & sober one day at a time in this program by living these 12 Steps since that week (4 yrs & 9 mos ago) & we reunited.- the life we have together is more than ideally compatible, based on sobriety being #1 priority before anything else - even one another. We are both grateful to have each other to share growing, changing & being of maximum service to God & others (including ea other) with. Thanks to this program & the willingness to go any lengths to follow the suggestions as they are given & do whatever steps/recovery work is set before me - God has been able to do for us what we could never have accomplished by self-will alone & those old ways of thinking, perceiving, doing things. Help is available - I pray that those who want it will go get it- Life can be lived very happily, joyously - & Free of all that pain, hardship & bs.


Member: Samantha
Location: Tacoma
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 03:48 PM

Comments

'Living with someone who is still drinking and using' is an interesting subject, especially for clean and sober A.A. members. I find this of particular significance concerning my daily 'living' with my fellow A.A. members. My hope is that after a person is exposed to the benefits of a life without the use of addictive chemicals (as well as the harm of a life with such drugs), that person would go to any length to be clean and sober. But, I find that too rare a truth in A.A. I have a few friends in A.A. who still drink, I have a few friends in A.A. who are addicted to pills of one sort or another, and I have a ton of friends in A.A. who can't go 24 minutes (not to mention 24 hours) without a cigarette. It just blows my mind. To top it off, these poor folks tell people how great their life is now that they are clean and sober? What happened to honesty in the program? The worst offenders are those poor unfortunates who are still hooked on cigarettes. They sit in meetings coughing and always out of breath, suffer from cancer, have emphesyema, heart disease, diabetes, have had strokes, you name it, and they still won't admit they have a problem. But, one by one, they die from their disease (we've had a half dozen die from smoking in the last several months). If you mention anything to them about it, no matter how lovingly, they act like you just slapped them in the face. It's instant anger. Of course, that's just their addiction talking, but it is frustrating and truly sad. I know there's nothing anyone can do until these people are ready to get honest and quit faking it. But, it is sad to see them ruining their lives while in the haze of believing that they've accomplished something in A.A. Peace and love to all.


Member: New comers notice.........
Location:
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 04:49 PM

Comments

For any new people here on the site.. a word of warning)) there is a guy who posts here on this site claiming to be a catholic priest. You may want to scroll past his posts... as they can get very abusive and vulgar... he goes by different aliases... but you'll soon easily see that his sharing style is pretty much the same.. and you'll be able to spot his posts easily after a while (like a lot of us probably) because He will always be fault finding others here, and commenting on how wrong they are, he'll abuse people, name calling with very vulgar sexual comments,,, and he goes on and on and on every single day... and right now he's angry at me because im posting the truth about him, and he's not gonna like anyone threating his chances for being able to come here and do his act" so he'll now resort to posting as yet several other people, he'll be acting in those postings as if he were normal healthy and he'll try to make me look bad and feel stupid for saying this to you. (i know) ((its pathetic)) (and so very see through as well)) but at least you'll know and understand that alot of other people here work hard and are decent and will share thier experience, strength and hope with you... good luck in your sobriety, and keep coming back.


Member:
Location:
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 06:10 PM

Comments

Samantha, go help some drunks instead of finding fault with sober people who smoke.


Member: Sunshine
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 07:27 PM

Comments

Samantha, you are right, smokers are ADDICTED to nicatine. Don't you think all smokers are aware of that? Share with us somethng we don't already know. I've smoked 35 yrs and I am only 46. There are countless times that I've wanted to quit, just like alcohol at one time. In God's time. Also, I believe it is suggested that we pray for others? Say a prayer for all smokers tonight when you review your day. Also, try using "I" statements. This is not Nicatine Anonymous it is Alcohols Anonymous


Member: GREY OWL THE PHONY
Location: IN DE NILE....
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 07:46 PM

Comments

Hello all you precious wonderful alkies... i am a phony...would you like to become a phony too?.. well its real easy, ((if you feel angry you spew vicious back biting attacks on anybody here... just pick one, no need to be particular..(unless of course you have an special hate on for a particular group. you know: bitches, or fags might be your beef)) and later on when your back to feeling human you then include some genuine and nice statements for and about perhaps even the same people you attacked if you like... but of course you use a different alias.... because deep down you'll naturally be a bit embarrased about it and not want anyone to know that its you again acting completely sane and different.... hmmm <<< doing this can serve 2 purposes...first you'll be including your favorite fantasy of who you "really wish you were" and secondly you can really try to impress people and achieve a patchwork equivelent for your low self esteem, for your bad self. tell em your a fire man, a lesbian, or a catholic priest.... ha ha.... im fallin off my chair...how about tell them youve been sober for 20 years~! WOW!... im impressed already.... well bye now...


Member: to aka "Samantha in Tocoma"
Location: this is HONESTY
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 08:04 PM

Comments

you are not familiar with even the 1st clue about the AA program. not an inclining of knowledge about addictions. or that critical judgmental mind of yours wouldn't be "blown" (which obviously doesn't take much to do so). btw 'father michael' you can do a google search & find yourself a smokers anonymous/we be the holier than thou catholics site to haunt


Member: Roberta
Location: Canada
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 10:49 PM

Comments

It is interesting that the topic is about living with someone who still drinks when you have stopped. I am living this. I am only two weeks into being clean (no booze, pills <never a problem> or cigarettes<quit almost five years ago>) and sober. I didn't tell my partner I was going to quit drinking, I just stopped. I haven't been home the past couple of weekends because of a family emergency out of town, but I haven't touched a drop. When I came home this weekend there was plenty of beer that had been drunk along with a bottle of the hard stuff, by himself. I said nothing and I don't plan on saying anything either. I figure when he is ready to stop or slow down it will happen. My partner's father died of accute inflamation of the pancrease (sp) this is brought on by prolonged drinking in most cases. My partner doesn't think that his father's drinking beer with shots of any hard liquor was the sign of a drinking problem, so his father was part of the 10-20% who died of this problem without having a drinking problem. I have face a few challanges in the past two weeks that gave me an excellent excuse to start drinking again, but I wouldn't let myself. I don't want to end up like the mothers of at least three of the students my mother taught who mother's died while they were in high school because they were alcoholics. These women were not much old than I am now. One of the mian differences was that they were daily drinkers and I usually am a weekend drinker with the odd mid week drunk. Not much of a difference eh? I pray that I don't start drinking again just because it is in the house. I cannot and I will not ask nor tell my partner to stop drinking as I know that he has to want to stop and I can't make him stop. It is a hard postion to be in, but if you want something badly enough, if you are willing to fight for it within yourself enough you can handle having the forbidden substance around you.


Member: Diane
Location: Oklahoma
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 11:17 PM

Comments

hi Diane here day 173 sober got 7 days to go till I got my 6 months sober hehe God Bless us all


Member: Robin
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Date: September 14, 2003
Time: 11:34 PM

Comments

Shame on you, Samantha. You have spoken the truth and, consequently, you have raised the ire in the pseudo sobers who won't give up their precious cigarettes. Shame on you for speaking in such an honest manner. This is not Nicotine Anonymous, so let the smokers just continue in their half measure sobriety until they irreparably harm themselves and those around them. Also, this is not Narcotics Anonymous, so let those who won't give up their addiction sit in meetings and use heroin. This isn't Shoplifters Anonymous either, so let those who like to steal come to AA and rob the purses of the other memebers. Nor is this Rage-oholics Anonymous (got that from Seinfeld), so let those with anger management problems come to meetings and just hit whoever they want. Shame on you, Samantha, for telling the truth. Shame on you for making these AA's look honestly at the true nature of their behavior. But, as you mentioned, the truth to an addict is the same as a slap in the face. Good work, Samantha.


Member: Tom
Location:
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 12:05 AM

Comments

Its funny they call this site Early Sobriety.I know the old timers get alot more out of it.You look at this and say to yourself this is were I could be.They don't have a clue of this program.


Member: AZbill
Location: az-bill@mindspring.com
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 02:35 AM

Comments

HI. Bill here, alcoholic from Arizona. I don't smoke and I don't drink. I don't object to either. I just don't do them. I have drinking friends and I have smoking friends. The difference is that I don't hang out in the same places I used to nor do I hang out with the same type of people I used to. It does not bother me to be around alcohol. The program taught me how to not drink in a society where drinking is acceptable. Smoking and/or non smoking does not belong in AA. I put down my last drink in 1981 and I smoked my last cigarette in 1994. How dare you judge my sobriety. How dare you imply I must knock 13 years off my sobriety date. The word sobriety in case you missed that day in school means moderate or no use of alcohol. Bill Wilson once wrote that he could not imagine one alcoholic talking down to another alcoholic. If he is able to read these posts, he has turned over in his grave so many times the angels are probably calling him pinwheel Wilson. And, if I still have this on my mind in the morning I will have to do a 10th..But that is ok. I love you all anyway. Bill


Member: Donovan
Location: Omaha
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 03:13 AM

Comments

>Roberta> Let me be the first to say it. CONGRATULATIONS. Two weeks is not easy. Sometimes 24hrs isn't easy. But, as many of us know, the first 30 days of sobriety can be enough to "drive you to drink!" (We really will look for any excuse, won't we...?) System detox... give it time(in the arms of AA). Good insight in knowing that you cannot change your husbands behavior. Step one. Acknowledging that we are powerless. This can be a tough one-but it sounds like you're off to a good start. The tough part is in dealing with your cravings along with his own lifestyle, which is a part of your daily life. The best advice I'd be able to give you would be to: 1) always remember the Serenity Prayer, 2) Rely NOT on your own thoughts and instincs but on those given to you through your higher power (whether that be through god as you understand it, or through your own AA group itself), 3) Always, always keep coming back. I hope I could be of some help to you. Eventually this situation will unwind itself one way or another. Prepare for that by being sober when it happens ;) Hang in there.


Member: jack
Location: not ass
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 07:14 AM

Comments

your right tommyboy they dont have a clue. even worse is that they dont even know they dont have a clue and scary is that they run around talking about all there clues they dont hav. hell maybe the newcomers would be better off and to watch blue's clues and find some real clues.


Member: Another Bill
Location: California
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 08:54 AM

Comments

Good morning, my friends. It is getting a little hot in here, is it not? Arizona Bill, my friend, I believe you have misread the topic and the posts. The topic is "Living with someone who is still drinking and USING." 'Using' implies the use of all kinds of drugs, not just alcohol. So the discussion of smoking and other drug use is certainly germane to the topic at hand. Second, although your definition of 'sobriety' is accurate, the posters use the term 'clean and sober.' If you will look in the dictionary, the definition of 'clean' is 'free from drug addiction.' Drug addiction is defined as 'compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol)' Merriam-Webster Dictionary, Tenth Addition. Accordingly, those in A.A. who smoke are techinically 'sober,' but they are not 'clean and sober.' Of course, anyone is free to set any sobriety date for themselves that they see fit. I see it all the time in A.A. It matters not to me, as those who make up true sobriety dates are only lying to themselves. I only worry about my own sobriety (by the way, I don't drink, smoke, or use any other type of drugs - i.e. clean and sober, if you will). So, I hope that now that you have the facts, my Arizona friend, you will have a happy day. God bless all. Have a great day.


Member: Elijah
Location: Monaco
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 10:48 AM

Comments

I've never smoked and don't really care if anyone else does or not, but I sure as hell wouldn't live with somebody who does. Second-hand smoke and its effects on not only others, but especially if there are children involved is not to be taken so lightly. However if others choose to murder their "loved ones" who am I to say it's wrong, eh? Besides, ther would be practically no AA at all if there was a requirment that they not smoke tabacco. I mean even at the non-smoking meetings there is the very near-by smoking area, so it's not really non-smoking now is it? It's also where 90% of the so-called old-timers are at, sucking on cancer sticks and preaching how they know everything about sobriety at the same time---just freegin lovely huh?


Member: Becky
Location: Seattle
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 11:22 AM

Comments

The thing I hate about being an alcoholic is that I DON"T live in a vacuum. My friends and husband drink, most normally. But now that I've discovered (1 month clean and sober) that I don't want to drink anymore and that it is a problem for me, what do I do about my friends and husband? I don't want to be around it as I REALLY LIKE TO DRINK AND BEING AROUND IT SUCKS BIG TIME. But I love my husband and friends who now are very awkward about it all. Sigh, I'm not sure there is any resolution to this dilema, we all just have to adjust and maybe my new lifestyle will mean some tough choices as I go along.


Member: the RIGHT
Location: Thing to do
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 11:34 AM

Comments

don't leave your hubby---leave aa first!!!


Member: Melissa
Location: Canada
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 12:44 PM

Comments

Hi, Becky, yeah, that's how I felt, too. Yes, I was an alcoholic, and no, I could not drink any more, but what was I supposed to do about that husband (whom I also loved) and all those friends who drank, darn near all of them quite normally. I quit my book club for a time (we all drank wine at the meetings, me too much) and for that first fragile months of my sobriety no, I didn't go to the dinner parties, and other get-togethers. I finally said to my husband "I don't want any alcohol in our house, this is my life we are talking about" and found out that to a person who really loves and cares about my well-being, this didn't present a problem. (But I had to say it out loud. He didn't offer.) When I declined invitations, I just said "sorry, and thanks for asking, but I can't make it" (my husband was free to accept or decline, as he wished) and didn't offer up any reasons or excuses. In my first year of sobriety, my sole mission was to save my life which was in jeopardy of ending in suicide because I just couldn't take how I was feeling anymore, and I really didn't let anyone get in my way. To my huge surprise, people supported me all along the way, including the people not in recovery who didn't really understand alcoholism. Sober women in AA told me exactly how they'd handled all the situations that arise when one is trying to not drink, and well, their solutions worked. I worked and try and live the steps and now find that I am well able to go anywhere, including dinners, parties and the book club, because all I am is an alcoholic, and there's a solution to that. Getting sober, and living without the drink is the best thing that has ever happened to me. I achieved sobriety within AA, and found the answers to my day to day living problems in the steps. I'm still married, and our marriage is healthy now, not problem-free, but healthy. I don't like being around active alcoholics, (they're boring) but people who drink normally, and most of them do, present no problem at all. It was all a learning process, with a lot of mistakes along the way, but for four years now, I really like my life, and unlike the old days, actually BEING alive is okay. Best wishes to you and love and encouragement.


Member: info from Pam B
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 01:23 PM

Comments

Let me help the very confused w/so many misconceptions about AA & what "Sobriety" in the AA program is here: the term "clean & sober" is NOT "AA lingo" - "clean" from "using" drugs is NA lingo. "Clean" & "Using" are terms that have nothing to do with "Sober" & "Drinking" in the AA Program, BB or any other AA literature. - This is an AA site about Sobriety. period.


Member: Donovan
Location: Omaha
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 01:34 PM

Comments

There are several people who've posted some questionable things here (You know who you are). I'm going to encourage you to please proceed with caution. You don't know who's reading these posts on the other end of the phone line. Don't claim to know. If you "had a clue" about the program at all, you'd know about tolerance. You'd know that this page is here to offer the insight and wisdom that you carry from your own experiences to, at the very least, make an attempt to help someone else instead of complaining about those who just aren't as all knowing as you are(12 stepping???). This page is not here to discourage. If indeed you are old timers (and I question that), then be aware that right now, it is you who we are learning from. It would be far more effective if your methods of teaching were intentional. Have a wonderful afternoon everybody. Stay sober today.


Member: I was a newcomer, once, too.
Location:
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 01:37 PM

Comments

Too true. Alcoholics Anonymous is for people who have a desire to quit drinking. AA has no opinion on outside issues (smoking is an outside issue.) There is help available for all kinds of problems, but not on this site. This page is for people who want to stop drinking, or have stopped, and want to ask questions, or share their experience, strength and hope on their problems relating to alcoholism. Folks who have a different agenda can safely be scrolled past.


Member: do NOT Listen
Location: to an UNsober one
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 02:08 PM

Comments

of course pammyb girl is a UNsober smokergirl herself and a nose-it-all show she sinks she should shell everyone exactly what she does is sobriety---it's NOT!! She is NOT sober, still drunk on tabbaccy, maybe even the wacky too, who knoaws?


Member: the smoker
Location:
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 03:26 PM

Comments

thanks for pointing that out I smoke so i'm helpless or is it hopeless. I new this wouldn't work for me good luck all.


Member: Becky
Location: Seattle
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 03:57 PM

Comments

THANK YOU so much, Melissa, for your helpful response to my posting. My husband has been more than supportive, my house is clean. But I've been wondering if I'll ever be able to be around my friends who are mostly normal drinkers. You gave me real hope for the future, that I'll be able to be around them without it being an issue one day. I'm working at my sobreity, going to AA, have just started with a sponsor, really want to make this happen for me.


Member: Batman
Location: New Mexico
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 05:31 PM

Comments

For those who are upset because some people recognize the danger smoking poses to recovering AA's, please add the following to the discussion. First, the topic is about living with people who are still drinking and using. "Using" means smoking, snorting cocaine, injecting heroin, any drug use. If you don't think sharing facts about smoking or other drug use is appropriate, talk to the person who picked to topic. Second, smoking is the most directly related AA topic other than actual drinking than I can think of. I hear AA's talk about their family problems, work problems, personal problems, etc. all the time. That has very little to do with drinking. But, smoking is directly related to alcoholism. Nicotine and alcohol are cross-addicting drugs (i.e., using one leads to use of the other). Just go to any bar and see how many people have a drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other. Also, the behavior is exactly the same. Whether you try to use alcohol as a crutch for your problems, or you turn to tobacco as a crutch, it is the same behavior. Additionally, just as excessive drinking can lead to disease, death, and all types of misery, smoking leads one down exactly the same path. Finally, look at page 164 where it states that "more will be revealed." Well, since the big book was written, more has been revealed. Back then, little was known about the dangers of smoking or its addictive nature. Now, it is well known that tobacco is the most abused drug in the world, it is among the most addictive drugs in the world, and it kills ten times as many people as all other drugs combined (including alcohol). Bill W, et al., acknowledged that they knew very little when they wrote the big book. If you stay only with the big book today, you also know very little. Follow the advice on page 164 and look at what has been revealed. For what has a person accomplished by quitting drinking only to die from smoking or another drug addiction? The answer, as you can plainly see, is nothing as the end result is still death. If you smoke, please use this opportunity to get honest with yourself, get clean and sober, and live. God bless you all.


Member: Sarah
Location: Kansas City
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 06:40 PM

Comments

I like what you say Batman, however you are wrong about cigiies and barley/hops being cross-addictive. You may find a few classes on brain chemistry helpful in the area of such matters or just research it yourself, but the only drugs cross-addictive with alcohol, hence act upon the glutamate and GABA in the brain, are benzos and a few other anti-anxiety drugs. That's why they use them to "wean you" when you go to detox at hospitals, so you don't die from withdrawls. Anyways, you're right about what the topic says up top and I'm grateful to you speaking up for real sobriety, your just not completely informed is all. Inform yourself to better articulate and defend your posistion my friend, it's a worthy cause. Anedoctally, I personally have never smoked more than a grand total of two cigarettes in my life, hence the idea that we all do it is a little far-fetched as well. I know many like myself who drank like fish and never smoked, but yes certainly we are the minority. That's part of the reason nobody wants to talk about it, they nearly all smoke that unhappy baccy. The other thing my friend is, "We are ALL equal in death," as has been said many times by some far more wise than me. Peace be with you dear man......


Member: Pam B - Sobergirl91 at hotmail dot com
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 06:47 PM

Comments

Batman - the truth is just the opposite to both of these statements you made: 1) "Second, smoking is the most directly related AA topic other than actual drinking than I can think of." & 2) "I hear AA's talk about their family problems, work problems, personal problems, etc. all the time. That has very little to do with drinking." >>>>> because the TRUTH is - to #1 - smoking is not causing anyone to pick up a drink. Smoking or not smoking is no relation to being able to put the drink down or not - UNLESS it is someone new, someone in early sobriety, or for whatever reason simply is not ready yet for being able to stop without it CAUSING them to pick up a drink from trying to do so! - Fact is, Smoking has NEVER been an AA Topic anywhere in the rooms of AA. It is an outside issue. It is against AA Traditions to hold any opinion on any outside issue. >>>>> & to #2 - those topics are everything to do w/what people drink over till via the 12 Steps we learn how to Live that real Life on Life's Terms without having to drink.>>>>> No one is saying that smoking is fine & dandy - & someone would have to be an absolulte ostrich w/their head in the sand to NOT know the health facts & risks. These posts harp about it in such an obsessive manner as if you have JUST NOW heard about it - & in panic have set yourself on a mission to save the world - when the rest already know since long ago (& are dealing w/it in their own personal way & time & choice as to whether they WANT TO or not.) >>>>> Meanwhile - back to my concern is the life of others in respect to what this site "IS" for - the help they HAVE come here to inquire about for themselves > ie How to NOT DRINK. >>>>> I haven't seen any come to AA & ever ask to know about whether they should stop smoking. nor ask how to. If any did, the simply reply would be that if they have problems other than alcohol, help is available for that elsewhere & if they like, we'll help them find it.>>>>> Many innocent un-aware newcomers have picked up the drink that lead to their early death because someone laid a bondage of guilt-tripping on them to manipulate them into trying to quit before they had been given time to know how to stay sober. (God got them here to help them, but the self-appointed little gods lead them to their death instead)- (& will also stand f2f before our Creator one day btw.)>>>>> AA Tradition is that we carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers (ie is still drinking) = the topic & sharing at every AA mtg is to be geared to the brand new person who just arrived at a mtg for the very 1st time.>>>>> If you shared just your own ES&H you would be able to include mention of how you stopped smoking as well as drinking. You could offer anyone interested to know how to stop smoking or wanting xtra help/support with that to email you personally rather than bring it into a mtg - & that would be more likely to help many who would like to know. (if helping anyone is really your agenda) >>>>> The fabricated dramas about smokers at mtgs (which sound like a rehearsed sales pitch. are you selling something?) & the complaints & judgements, dishonest statements about what sobriety is & the deceptive manipulations seeking to talk down to everyone (as if 'not smoking' renders all these other unrecovered attributes about you as something "better than")just isn't receptive by anyone, in AA or not. >>>>> Just share your own ES&H - you might find you attract more flies w/honey than the no attraction using vinegar.


Member: Karen P.
Location: Atlanta, GA
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 07:38 PM

Comments

P in NY--Don't beat yourself up. Hopefully by now you are on your second day sober, and that's a big accomplishment. I know you are disappointed in yourself, but don't let it bring you down or be the start of an extended relapse. If you need someone to talk to, I am Poelman@msn.com. I'd be happy to correspond. Take care, one day at a time, got to meetings, get a sponsor, read the BB, call other AAs. You probably know all this, but I thought a little support might help.


Member: E,S, and Hope
Location: USA
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 08:46 PM

Comments

Aside from the abysmal spelling as a general rule on this site, my understanding,through the BB was at AA, "we share our experience ,strength and hope". If there is a smoking issue go to Smoke-Enders, drugs other than booze- see NA. I agree w/ BillAZ. My last dealing w/ this AA site, stay sober.


Member: Karen
Location: NYC
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 08:48 PM

Comments

Seems like someone's a little upset around here, eh? clearly the topic is stated at top and clearly thpeople have all kinds of opinions about all kinds of things in AA, that is not what the Tradition means at all. If that were the case everything would be an outside issue and that's not the case, it just is to her(pamb) becasuse she knows she's not really sober until she stops smoking, which she hasn't as of yet--period---end of discussion...smoking is directly realated and talk away people's---she has no say on what can be said, how stupid is that to imply?


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 09:46 PM

Comments

Hi All, I have been a little under the weather and unable to take ibuprophen because of an upcoming surgery. I still made it to my meeting and it was good. Welcome Sarah and Becky! Congrats Diane on 175 days!!! Thats Awesome. On the topic, I don't want to live with anyone who drinks now or ever. I did that with my son's father and it was hell. I finally had to bail the second time he tried to kill me in a blackout. He died at 37 from the disease. I was young when I met him and he was on Antibuse and only when he went off of it did I realize how bad his drinking was. My house is alcohol free now and I like it that way. I hang around sober people and places because it fits my lifestyle now. To the person who asked about how long sober is considered being a newcomer in AA it is generally a year of sobriety. Of course a sobriety date is just how long you have not consumed alcohol and not the state of the person with a given amount of time. That confused me when I first came into AA. I have a long way to go with just under a year. At meetings the people that have peace, tolerance and help the newcomer stand out. That is my goal and I can tell now when I'm slipping because I lose my peace. Then by checking myself I can see my spiritual side needs some work. Quiet meditation and turning to God help me get my peace back most of the time. When I get mad at others it is usually something about myself that is bothering me. Everyone have a good 24. Kelly :)


Member:
Location:
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 10:33 PM

Comments

Why does it seem all the crazy people are from NY? I thought that was regulated to Los Angeles only, especially 'Valley Girls'


Member: maybell
Location:
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 10:46 PM

Comments

Hello I drink coffee is that a drug to. What about tea is that a drug.If it is then yes I'm Living with someone who is still drinking and using


Member: C.B.
Location: LORAIN OHIO USA
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 11:08 PM

Comments

TOday LIving one day time WE still always being sick people out there . I say TO the people we pray for them to get better . THE person that is still out there need to pray to so he will get a higher power in his or her life as this will change in there life today live in let live. today we as sick people are getting better if we stay here go to ameeting here we let god and our higher power today get better say have a wonderfulnight but pray for a better nights sleep amen no trobble today and god bless all !!!


Member: Pam B - Sobergirl91 at hotmail dot com
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 11:45 PM

Comments

When I was new & growing more & more frustrated at hearing the variety of differing views that some AA's shared - my sponsor & the longertime sober AA members told me its very simple to know what is right to pay heed to (to "take")& what is nonsense that I can "leave" . . . they told me if I cannot find something that someone tells me written in the BB (the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous) or written in the 12&12 or written in the AA conference approved literature - then its NOT the AA Program - I can "leave it" >>>>> I would like to note that I always post including not only my Name & real Location, but also my email address - because I have no "personal vendettas" that I'm seeking to promote in opposition to the AA program, nor at your expense. - & I have a genuine desire to help any other that I might be able to be a part of what helps you put the drink down & keep it put down - just as so many freely helped me. You may notice throughout this site that any of the really sober, real AA members also post their Real Names, Locations & email address. Any of us are always available to contact & welcome you to do so - I very much appreciate all who do. Thanks for being here. Pam


Member: sherry m
Location: eastcoast
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 11:58 PM

Comments

I am new to AA and go to meetings several a week.I too was in a sort of relationship that he drank every day.It was hard enough dealing with my own issues and drinking on a daily basis.I'd get upset,confusedand mad all rolled into one.So I kicked him to the curb,then he would sleep outside my house because he didn't want to give up.I took care of the whole situation from there and joined AA to start taking care of my own life for a change.AT age 40 I have a new start and it's been hard all the way around but no pain no gain.I am going to be 60 days of sobriety with GOD's help and proud of it! thanks.


Member: sherry m
Location: eastcoast
Date: September 15, 2003
Time: 11:58 PM

Comments

I am new to AA and go to meetings several a week.I too was in a sort of relationship that he drank every day.It was hard enough dealing with my own issues and drinking on a daily basis.I'd get upset,confusedand mad all rolled into one.So I kicked him to the curb,then he would sleep outside my house because he didn't want to give up.I took care of the whole situation from there and joined AA to start taking care of my own life for a change.AT age 40 I have a new start and it's been hard all the way around but no pain no gain.I am going to be 60 days of sobriety with GOD's help and proud of it! thanks.


Member: BABE
Location: off the fence......
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 01:16 AM

Comments

Thanx to everyone for your shares.. especially pam.... thanx for all your input pam. Sounds like you've been through some stuff there pam, and its so encouraging to see your experience strength and hope about it. You do seem really genuine, and it shows.. I personally don't live with people who are active alcoholics. But i did, of course i did, because by the time i was 8 or 9 my parents and alot of my extended family were practicing alcoholics. Being involved with an active addict is a pretty fruitless and shallow experience, and i don't care how much alanon a person has,, unless you got a really mellow, functioning alcoholic.. ya right eh?)).. its not worth the heartache if you absolutely don't have to be there then my suggestion is don't. I don't have all the answers for all the people on this topic, because of course im only one person with one perspective, but generally speaking, its an emotional roller coaster until you learn and master detatchment, and then at best its just something your settling for cause your either too scared to leave, and too lazy to change. just my opinion. i don't have a problem with cig's , but if i did, i wouldn't come here and yack away about it, because it is in fact breaking tradition, not to mention; away from the primary purpose, first things first, and easy does it, all in one fell swoop... i agree with pam, as i have been around am familiar with the traditions etc etc. thanx for your valuable input pam... just one further thought... i don't come here because im looking for friends, and i will likely never be going to poconos..and its not because im trying to be better or mean,,, its cause i have a full life as it is,, and i couldn't possibly fit more stuff on my agenda, i knew this from the begining, and i just wanted to state it, because i am starting to really care about other people, and i am hoping they won't think negatively about why i don't get any closer to people here.. yada yada... some body was asking me to chair thier meeting if i ever came to their city.. i can't remember who that was.. but it was a hoot... if your still out there, hello back and thanx for the offer. well lifes good, and i know Mark L didn't really mean to call me a dumb broad,, isn't that right mark?... buddy?... pal?.. hello?... brack brack.....


Member: nutty Pam
Location: mars
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 01:20 AM

Comments

I would like to note that I always post including not only my Name & real Location, but also my email address - because I have no "personal vendettas" that I'm seeking to promote in opposition to the AA program,real AA members also post their Real Names, I don't think so theirs two many nuts out there when your name and address an e-mail end up on the Pam does dallas list who are you going to blame your nuts


Member: Bill C
Location: Kansas City
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 02:42 AM

Comments

I've been watching all the posts for several weeks and have not been adding any myself because I've never been to an AA meeting, although I have been through detox and am in an IOP group. My first AA meeting is tomorrow and I have 5 sober days under my belt. I can't say much about living with someone who still uses, because I'm the one who uses. But I will say this-reading this column and seeing the attacks of haters who are really ouside the group is disconcerting enough, but watching true members tear into each other is truly disapointing. I'm going to that meeting tomorrow and I'm going to admit something that is difficult for me. I'm a drunk. Period. Helpless, but not hopeless.


Member: Donovan
Location: Omaha
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 03:22 AM

Comments

Donovan-alcohalic/addict. >Bill C.> A heartfelt congratulations on your 5 days of sobriety. It's a bittersweet battle, my friend, and worth every moment of it(sober). So many people (myself included) expect life to be fair, and comfortable, and enjoyable 100% of the time. The reality is that pain is as much a part of our lives as any of these things. Learning to become a "friend" to pain (and deal with it appropriately (allowing it to heal and strengthen us) brings balance to our lives and allows us to become familiar with every angle of our personal story. It's my opinion that this law applies everywhere you go throughout your day, and under any circumstance. I just thought I'd share with you a little something that helps me along my ride. It tends to put things into perspective for me. On an ending note--don't be discouraged by the posts that you read here. People aren't usually brave enough to be as crude in a face to face meeting, firstly. Secondly, we all know the inevitable: You're going to find people who are negative and discouraging wherever you go (sometimes around the tables, but much more often at the bar!!!). And thirdly--who cares! Take what YOU need to stay sober and leave the rest. I'll finish by saying goodnight to everyone in the room, and enjoy your day in sobriety today! Peace;)


Member: Lily
Location: Oklahoma
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 07:56 AM

Comments

It's official---pammy is another crazy broad that nose nothing about AA and only parrots what she hears from others apparently incapable of her own thought. as if that silly bigbook cant be interpreted a million different ways, just ask twenty people about there opinion on what a passage says and you'll see 100 different answers. its ALL opinion and smoking is no more an outside issue than any of the others they talk about--period. funny how the smokers don't want to hear about it, eh? sort of like the alkie who doesn't want to stop doesn't want to hear it either, eh?


Member: shorty
Location: life
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 04:40 PM

Comments

Well this won't work for me I'm glad life is short.There will be a day that it will end for me.Than no more bullchit its going to be nice


Member: Jan BB
Location: Paris, France
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 04:57 PM

Comments

((Bill C.)) well done on 5 days, keep at it, one sober day next to another sober day. :) I have no experience, strength or hope to add on the topic as I never lived with anyone drinking or using while sober. I was single when I got sober. As usual ((Melissa from Canada)) has down to earth ES&H and full understanding of how she handled the issue her early sobriety. I met my hsuband in the rooms of AA, yet we do have a clause in our mutual marriage agreement. If either one of us goes out, as in drinking or using drugs, the marriage is over and the sober one will raise our son, period. This may sound harsh, yet for us it speaks of our commitment to our sober based relationship and bringing up our son in a clean and sober household. BTW, the smoking issue that is being floged here is not the purpose of AA, quitting smoking is an outside issue. AA neither endorses or opposes it. The only issue AA takes is weather you receive the information that the meeting is smoking or non-smoking. I quit smoking after one year of sobriety (my husband never has), I have over 12 years smoke free. I felt the need to get clear in my life all addiction issues once I got drinking and drugs one year under my belt. Yes, Bill W. himself died from the effects of smoking and so are and have many long standing AA's. Please, I do ask, if you feel stongly on this subject, please try to adhere to the guidelines,(posting once a week if over one year sober, 300 word max.) respect all that post here, let's help the newcomer acheive sobriety. Let us all continue to support everyone, one sober day next to another sober day, after all isn't that where we all started? Thanks for allowing me to share, HOPE for ((Everyone)) janbbparis@yahoo.com


Member: petersen m
Location: washington
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 06:07 PM

Comments

THANKYOU DONAOVAN, MARK ny and azbill for your posts and thankyou to the person who brought up bill wilson saying that he could not imagine an alcoholic talking down to another. well again traditions are at stake here. this is alcoholics annonymous and all of us have different problems and are at different stages of sobriety, life, health and spirituallity, so how about true tolerance of one another? from the 12 and 12: it is a spiritual axiom that every time i am disturbed there is something wrong with ME. hmmmm well for me living with someone who is still drinking would just be too much but it is an entirely individual- what is right for one person may kill another. so you should go with your gut and utilize the tools in the program.


Member: Juris
Location: Boise
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 06:52 PM

Comments

I would like to address the "outside issues" as related to the discussion at hand, particularly as it relates to the topic concerning living with a person who still uses other drugs. Several of the posters are saying that talking about smoking or other drug use violates AA's traditions because that is an "outside issue." AA's Tenth Tradition states that "Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy." When one reads this tradition, one should note that the first part of the sentence concerning "outside issues" is an introdutory clause and must be read in the context of the whole. One may not just take the two words "outside issues" out of context and bootstrap them into a prohibition on members speaking on any issue. The tradition does not apply to individual members. It is directed to the corporate body of Alcoholics Anonymous only. Please see the discussion in the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, beginning at page 176, where it states that the Tenth Tradition only applies to the whole of A.A. This means that as a body, A.A. should not adopt a position on an outside issue which would envelope it into a public controversy. Thus, A.A. would not, as an official organization, take a public position on the validity of the Iraq war, same sex marriages, upcoming elections, or similar issues. However, individual members are free to take a position on such issues and express themselves on the same. As good citizens, one would expect that individuals would do so, as such dialoge is essential to our system of government. The bottom line is that the Tenth Tradition applies ONLY to the corporate body of Alcoholics Anonymous, NOT to individual members. Accordingly, individual members are free to express themselves on the issue of smoking or other drug use if they please, or on any other matter. I post this so that our newer members will know the truth about what can or cannot be said in A.A. - the truth is that nothing is prohibited. Those who have been in A.A. for awhile should not be misleading newer members with the misstatements that "talking about outside issues violates our traditions." May the Truth be your guide.


Member: Kerry C
Location: TX
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 06:52 PM

Comments

Kerry here an alcoholic. Since my willing participation in my alcoholism took everything but my life, I have been fortunate enough to have a place to stay with one of my siblings. Unfortunately that sibling drinks. The drinking is usually hidden as she tries to hide it to maintain her functional alcoholic status...lol But occasionaly there is beer around the house. That really doesn't bother me when I see it. I know for me to drink is to die. The hard part is the behavior of an active alcoholic. There are pros and cons. The good side being that it really shows me some of what I used to be like when drinking. The bad side being this household is totally dysfunctional most of the time. I am still in early sobriety (less than a week away from 6 months without a drink). I would not recommend living with an active alcoholic to anyone early in recovery, unless absolutely necessary. There have been many days that the issues here have pushed the thought of drinking to the front of my mind. Thank God I didn't act on any of them. I worked the program as suggested to get past those days. I have wanted to move out almost everyday since I have stopped drinking. Finally I am doing that tomorrow. God has been dumping barrels of Blessings upon me the last few weeks and has given me the opportunity to move out. Not a minute too soon either. Looking back possibly those trying days helped me gain faith in God and this program. But if you have any other choice I don't recommend living with someone still drinking.


Member: Batman
Location: New Mexico
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 07:15 PM

Comments

Sarah, from Kansas City, thank you for your comments and your instruction. It is so refreshing to hear from someone in A.A. who is obviously well educated. It gets a little frustrating trying to communicate with the others sometimes. I will take your advice and do a little study in the biochemistry of cross-addiction. I had read recently (either in the New England Journal of Medicine or The Lancet) that nicotine and alcohol were cross- addicting. But, all I recall is the conclusion that they were in fact cross-addicting. I don't recall if the cause was bio-chemical or psychological or learned behavior or some combination. I will have to recheck that. But, no doubt, both are the same in the long run and eventually lead to death. You might be interested that in The Lancet a few months ago, a study was done on addicted patients where they were alternately injected with heroin, nicotine, and cocaine. The addicted patients were unable to differentiate betweeen the three drugs. That may explain why our smoking friends do not want to talk about their addiction. Your educated thoughts on that would be enlightening. Anyway, thanks for your comments and direction. I will do some studying shortly.


Member: Sarah
Location: Kansas City
Date: September 16, 2003
Time: 08:54 PM

Comments

Batman))Thank you kind sir. Yes, I'm sure the journals were referring to a biopsychosocial conclusion as the brain chemistry research is while ongoing and very extensive, fairly new and not particularly conclusive. Most professional research certainly takes all the factors into consideration, but I'm unfamiliar with The Lancet, so I don't know. I love your shares and please don't stop with Truth just because they don't want to see it. Thanks soo much. Juris)) Potatoland huh? Wow that was a good post also. You articulated that as well as I've ever seen and it is not only right but kindly and gently stated, thanks for saying what I was thinking. I hope you too continue to post here as the voice of reason seems to be squelched quickly around here as you may have already observed. Nevertheless, thanks again as that was truly brilliant and I for one appreciate it deeply.


Member: Jane C.
Location: Alaska
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 02:16 AM

Comments

Jane C.I'm finally getting on to posting again..we've been away fpr a while..got back this week-end.. I"ve been reading the posts since Sunday and I'm really getting a good education here..how to be even more accepting for one...my husband went through a 2 year battle with lung cancer before he died and I was his sole caretaker' caretaker..my pastor once told me that someday I would look back and find that those 2 years were the most rewarding times in my life..and now I know that he was right..it has made me a lot stonger in a lot of areas, but not so in others that I'm still working on..as for living with one who is still using..I married my first husband much too young..I really thought he was a great guy.. little did I know that he was a drinker..neither of us drank when we were dating...and I missed all the clues as to his drinking after we were married..he was drinking before we were married..I missed the signs because of my age..there were hints from his friends that I overlooked..he was an abusive man, but only AFTER we were married..he would come home from work already drunk and I NEVER knew..he was so mean and cruel and I had no idea that it was from alcohol..he actually drank on the job, and I found this out many years later..(He's still drinking and nearly died at one point) NO, I may not be living with him now, but I do know what it was like to live with a drinker..my life with him was what made me pick up the first drink, and it was easier to put up with life with him when I was in another world..My BF is a wonderful man in most respects, except for his smoking..Yep, here it is again, that other addictiion)..he's trying so hard, but now and then he picks it up again..sound familiar?..sometimes when he does smoke, I tell him that I almost feel like taking a nice glass of wine, but I pray that never happens..and so far I'm very grateful that God is helping me get through these early days and months..I'm into my 9th. week and I want to stay sober. tomorrow is another day I hope God will see me through..Sorry this is so long,sometimes I can get too wordy..God be with us all..


Member: Joe P
Location: Chicago
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 07:38 AM

Comments

AA is about abstinence from alcohol. The only requirement for membership - the desire to stop drinking. Don't let anybody tell you that sober in AA has anything to with tobacco and smoking. They are just trying to blow smoke up your...well...nevermind. Read page 135 in the BB. BTW, before you goofballs come and say that I'm a smoker and that's why I say that - well, I'm not a smoker. As far as the topic goes, I live with a wife who appears to be able to drink socially. Her drinking is no problem for me today. That is in part because I mad a lot of f2f AA meetings and took the steps as suggested by my sponsor, and found myself returned to sanity by a power greater than myself. Read pp 84-85 in the BB.


Member: Richard S
Location: Shreveport LA
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 08:09 AM

Comments

This is my first time at this site. I was living with my wife of 13 years but I am getting a divorce. We both drank and used drugs. I am getting my life together day by day with the help of AA and my church. I have have moved into a veterans's home near the VA hospital where I can get psychiatric and drug abuse treatment. I was at times abusive and she to me sometimes also. For my own mental health my Dr's agreed with me that it was time to end the marriage as she is also mentally ill and we were making each other worse. I have been sober since August 22nd 2003 which is not very long. I attend AA meetings locally but these online variety help when I can't get to a meeting.


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 08:55 AM

Comments

Good morning all, Great news Kerry that you are able to leave your current situation. I have a friend in the same situation right now that serves the purpose but is not ideal. He is getting out and happy about it. His roomate is in AA but currently out on drugs and bumming money like crazy from everyone. He makes a lot of money too but I guess his drugs are very expensive. He is a respitory therapist at the hospital and I need to have my surgery there but I don't want him taking care of me! I have a polyp on my right vocal cord that is being removed on the 22nd. Welcome back Jane, I could relate to your first marriage. It was a learning experience living with an alcoholic. I kept thinking I could fix him but he never wanted help. I wish I had known about Alanon back then. Leaving him was one of the hardest things I ever did. On the smoking issue I don't get why it is such a big deal. Getting sober to me is first and foremost. I have smoked since I was 16 and have quit three times. I am quitting again because I decided with my sponsor to wait till I got my year before I took that on. First things first as they say. I am sober today and that is my priority. I have heard there is no wrath like that of a reformed smoker. I hope I don't get all hung up on it and drive everyone nuts. When I quit before I did not turn radical and I think I was sympathetic with smokers. It is tough to kick the habit. It is much easier to point that finger of judgement at others than look at your own imperfections but it does not make you any better of a person. The blame game is about avoiding taking personal responsibility for your own defects of character and that said, (judging others) is a defect of character. Try working on that! Also what do you want to accomplish? Do you want to make someone feel bad enough to drink? Do you think someone reading it will throw there cigs away because of your comments? Just like quitting drinking it is up to the individual to decide when enough is enough. To tell you the truth I am having a lot more trouble with my cholestrol then my smoking but I love ice cream and prime rib. Even on Lipitor my cholesterol is still high. I need to work on my diet or I'll die of heart disease. My biggest defect is my ADD. I'm starting on a Strattera trial through Eli Lily and my doctor. Am I out of program because I need to take medication? How many alcoholics have gone out because someone told them they were not sober if they took doctor prescribed drugs and they stopped taking them? I'm just glad to be sober and alive today. Can we all chill now. Peace. Kelly :)


Member: Batman
Location: New Mexico
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 10:10 AM

Comments

De nada, Kansas City Sarah. The Lancet is the journal of the British Medical Association. Please keep sharing, as it is refreshing to hear the voice of intelligence and education, especially in the scientific field. More of that would be helpful to all of us. Muchas gracias.


Member: Karen P.
Location: Atlanta, GA
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 05:40 PM

Comments

(Richard) Congratulations on getting on with your life and your sobriety. You have been sober for going on a month now, and that is nothing to sneeze at. I'm glad you are getting the help and support that you need. Please get to meetings. I strongly recommend doing 90 meetings in 90 days. The internet is a great help, but f2f meetings are crucial. If I can be of help my e-mail is Poelman@msn.com. Take it one day at a time, besides meetings, read the Big Book, get a sponsor if you haven't already, and call! Karen P.


Member: Juris
Location: Boise
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 05:52 PM

Comments

Chicago Joe, you are correct in your allusion to the fact that the big book talks about smoking on page 135. It does not say that smoking is okay, however. It offers an opinion that alcohol is a more serious problem. That coincided with the medical view at the time (the 1930's). But, as Bill W wisely noted, "more will be revealed." (page 164, big book). Undoubtedly, more has been revealed since the time of the writing of the big book. We now know that smoking is not a harmless bad habit, but is a serious drug addiction that leads to misery and death. Some of the comments on this subject may seem unduly harsh to some, but AA is a program about honesty, which sometimes includes brutal honesty. People in AA who smoke are not like the typical smoker we see everyday. The smokers in AA are already actively involved in a substance abuse program. Thus, they have the "tools" to overcome their addiction easily within their grasp. It may well be appropriate to use a type of 'tough love' toward our fellow AA's who smoke to get them to use these tools before they ruin their life. It borders on irresponsibility to sit back and say nothing while these fine people kill themselves with their addiction. If an AA who was also hooked on cocaine came to a meeting and snorted cocaine throughout the meeting, would you sit back and just say nothing? I think not. If he or she tried to justify his or her using cocaine by referring to the fact that Bill W used LSD after he quit drinking, would you then approve of the cocaine use at the meeting? Again, I would think not. When one is participating in a substance abuse program, one needs to address all of his or her addictions. The purpose of recovery, in my humble opinion, is not merely to abstain from alcohol, but is to change our behavior. If one quits drinking alcohol but continues to use other drugs, whether it be tobacco or cocaine or any other addictive drug, then one has not changed his behavior, he has only chnged his drug of choice. I believe that is the point that some of the posters here are trying to get across. It profits no one if she quits drinking only to suffer equally from another drug addiction. As long as you are in a meeting, address all of your addictions (as many of my AA friends who introduce themselves as alcoholic/addict do). Otherwise, you are like the man who goes to the doctor for treatment of a broken arm and the doctor notices that he has malignant skin cancer. The doctor advises the man to have the cancerous lesions burned off, but the man says "I didn't come here for that, so just fix my arm and leave me alone." While you're at the doctor, take care of all your ills. Similarly, while you are addressing your alcoholism, my dear smoking and using friends, address your smoking and other drug addictions.


Member: Cassey C
Location: New Hampshire
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 06:30 PM

Comments

Hi I'm new to recovery....Trying so hard to get my life in order and not doing so well. I just want support.


Member: Juris
Location: Boise
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 07:06 PM

Comments

Addendum to Sarah from Kansas City and to Cassey from New Hampshire. Cassey, it is tough in the beginning, but with a faith and trust in God, you will grow strong. My prayers will be with you. Sarah, thank you for your too kind words. God bless you, my dear friend.


Member: Joe P
Location: Chicago
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 10:00 PM

Comments

Juris - This is not a "substance abuse program". This is AA - abstinence from alcohol. I know the difference between the two, how so is a longer story already told on Glen's web site http://www.ghaubold.com/Stories.htm . You seem to have AA and ?substance abuse program? confused. A common misconception, but a misconception none-the-less. Joe --- joep041699@mindspring.com


Member: CNEISEN
Location: MINNESOTA
Date: September 17, 2003
Time: 11:43 PM

Comments

PLEASE REMEMBER, THAT JUST BECAUSE THIS IS AN ONLINE MEETING, NOT A FACE TO FACE MEETING, THAT DOESN'T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BE MEAN TO ONE ANOTHER. PLACE PRINCIPLES BEFFORE PERSONALITIES.


Member: Juris
Location: Boise
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 12:05 AM

Comments

Chigago Joe, thank you for the link to that site. I enjoyed reading the stories there, including your story, and I wish you the best in your career in social work. In your field, you may very well differentiate between the terms Aloholics Anonymous and substance abuse program, but I rely upon the dictionary definition. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, a substance abuse program is "a plan or system under which action may be taken toward the goal of recovery from excessive use of a drug (such as alcohol, heroin, cocaine, or nicotine)." This may be different than the definition used in the social work field, but Alcoholics Anonymous definitely fits the definition of a substance abuse program. Be that as it may, that is a very minor matter. The bottom line is that those who are in AA and who are still using other drugs, tobacco, cocaine, or whatever their drug of choice may be, should avail themselves of the tools of AA and get clean before they do irreparable harm to themselves. We lose way too many members to smoking particularly. I am sure you see the dangers faced by dual addicted persons every day in your line of work. Thanks again for your thoughts.


Member: Juris did you see this one
Location: copy/pasted from the Coffee Pot
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 12:36 AM

Comments

The AA members ARE "AA as a whole" The AA members ARE the AA Society. 12&12 Tradition Ten/1st paragraph/last line "...So long as WE don't argue these matters privately, its a cinch WE never shall publicly." That is speaking to US - the AA members - AA as a whole - we, the Society of AA members. (anyway, what could be even more PUBLIC than sharing as a member of AA in an open AA mtg? - than THIS public forum?) The entire chapter on Tradition Ten in the 12&12 is speaking TO AA members ("AA AS A WHOLE") & is addressing any time one is speaking AS an AA member - in a meeting or anywhere AS an AA member - that person is a respesentative of AA as a whole - spokesperson of the AA Society 3rd paragraph addresses this specifically: when restored as citizens of this world, an AA member is not going to back away from their individual responsibilities to act as they see right upon issues of our time (is not speaking "AS" an AA member is those places & situations. Is speaking as a restored citizen in the every day world setting)- but when we ARE speaking as a member of AA (in an AA setting or situation)we do NOT enter into public controversy - becaues we know that our society will perish if AA began permitting to do so. Further specific is referring to those who would seek to "USE" AA as a vehicle to REFORM (ie seeking to reform smokers & the like - or any other OUTSIDE issue - which is ANY issue that is outside of or beyond helping another alcoholic to stop drinking & to stay stopped) "The lesson to be learned from the Washingtonian Society was not overlooked by Alcoholics Anonymous" (the reason for Traditon Ten is to PROTECT the AA Program's continued survival & effectiveness at fullfilling our ONE Primary Purpose: to help the alcoholic who wants to stop drinking & stay stopped) - please READ those final 2 paragraphs. Some of the highlights in them: when the Washingtonian Society was new "At first, the society was composed entirely of alcoholics trying to help one another. The early members foresaw that they should dedicate themselves to THIS SOLE AIM." "Had they been left to themselves, and had STUCK TO THEIR *ONE* GOAL . . ." ". . . the Washingtonians permitted politicians and REFORMERS, both alcoholic and nonalcoholic, TO USE THE SOCIETY FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES." "When the Washingtonians became TEMPERANCE CRUSADERS, within a very few years they had completely lost their effectiveness in helping alcoholics." "As we surveyed the wreck of that movement, early AA members resolved to keep our Society out of public controversy." (SOCIETY - not corporate anything) "Thus was laid the cornerstone for Tradition Ten: "Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy." Alcoholics have additional problems, addictions & issues but the ONLY one that is AA's issue is the Solution to the drink problem as outlined in the BB. The numerous OTHER 12-step programs came about & offer help for those OTHER - OUTSIDE issues.


Member: Pam B
Location:
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 12:50 AM

Comments

I have been a member of AA since 1981 - sober again, one day at a time since 11/18/91 (after a relapse) - but I am not now, nor have I ever been a participant in any type of a "substance abuse program" >>>>> for an AA member to identify as an alcoholic/addict is redundant. Read the Dr's Opinion in the BB - an alcoholic is a person who is addicted to alcohol. At AA I am an alcoholic. At NA I am an addict. The ONLY addiction that AA is for is the addiction to alcohol. As the BB says, if you have problems OTHER THAN alcoholism, you need to go elsewhere to get the help you need for them.


Member:
Location:
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 01:21 AM

Comments

Donovan-alcohalic/addict. I've been avoiding the topic, but now I do feel compelled to say a brief something. And with no disrespect intended. This argument regarding smoking is getting to be downright ridiculous. Non-smoking meetings are available to those who don't like cloud filled rooms. I go to them myself. If your area doesn't have a non-smoking meeting, work at organizing one and others will follow. If someone chooses to drink, or do drugs or smoke cigarettes, that's their business not mine (unless they're seeking help, in which case I will always extend the arm of AA and be of whatever assistance I can). I AM powerless over the thoughts and actions of others (Step one-powerlessness) and a fool to think otherwise. Am I the first to come to this conclusion? No. Hence-smoking and non-smoking meetings. Keep it simple folks, and stay sober today.


Member: Joe P
Location: Chicago
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 08:03 AM

Comments

Juris ? That?s nice. Like going to the doctor for cancer and deciding to rely on your dictionary for understanding. I?m done with this conversation on the Early Sobriety page.


Member: Avid Reader
Location:
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 08:42 AM

Comments

Joe P.,all of the programs that are aa based are the same program and so it seems that one shoe fits all and should be applied at one fitting. Pam B.,what you stated is the furtherest thing from the truth.You are quoting a doctor from 1930 or so,times have changed girl,get with reality.


Member: Kelly M
Location: NH
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 09:14 AM

Comments

Hi ((Cassey C)), NH. WELCOME! I'm in the Dover area if you ever want to go to a meeting let me know... kay? Don't be discouraged with the cross talk here, we all have a right to our opinions. Thanks ((Joe P.)) for the link. I spent the last half hour reading your story and Annies and Mirandas. I have to go to a meeting and will read more later. It was truely inspiring reading! I go to AA but have been to NA by bringing a friend to some NA meetings. I finally stopped going because I kept getting in trouble for saying alcohol in the meetings... A big no-no! I'm supposed to say "addict". I am just a drunk and I don't know any better... Lol. I had to refer as alcohol as a "narcotic" and drinking as "using" too and kept screwing that up so I stopped going. I am what I am and thats a drunk and if I am asked to call myself something other than what I am I don't belong there! Just my humble opinion. In my first year I'm going after the big guns and that is the (one) thing that brought me to the brink of insanity and death. That was not cigs, love, abuse, men, workaholism, mental problems... Nope... It was king alcohol. Keeping it fairly simple today... Kelly :)


Member: Joe J
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 09:20 AM

Comments

Joe J here, alchoholic. I haven't lived with a person who drinks in my 11 months of sobriety but during these 11 months, I have been in situations where people were doing some heavy drinking. I have re-discovered that people are very annoying and obnoxious when they are drunk. Even in my using days, I could never tolerate a drunk if I was sober. The old adage, if you cant beat 'em, join 'em.. Well, I added to that. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em or leave. I now choose to leave. I'm glad I have had these opportunities because reminds me of how much of an asshole I was when I drank.(know it all, big shot, lance romance, last of the big time spenders, arrogant, loud, centre of attention, the funniest, best looking smartest guy in the bar..so I thought) Like I once told someone who asked me why I don't drink and I replied, "I don't like myself when I drink, and I dont think you will either" .......Re: non-smoking meetings. I've never been to a "smoking meeting" as the by-law in my city prohibits smoking in most public places. Most of the meetings I attend are in community centers or church basements. As a child, going to church, I don't remember seeing anyone smoke, and ditto goes for the community centre. I think all us smokers out there (me included) can sacrifice 1 hour at an AA meeting with out a cigarette, just as one would if they went to church. I think alot of smokers think it is their right to smoke where ever and when ever they want. It's only 1 hour smokers. If I can do it, so can you .


Member: BABE
Location:
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 10:57 AM

Comments

Ive changed my mind. Its is breaking tradition to keep on about the outside issues. how confusing would that be for a newcomer to read that he now has to become free of nicotine, and hey what if he's really fat because he over eats, maybe that's killing him too.. maybe he should do it all in one day.... no i don't think so. From what ive seen no one ever crashed thier car because they "smoked too many cigarettes, or ended up in the "smoke tank, or the fatties tank" at the police station. The big book says if we as alcoholics are going to get in the least bit honest, we are going to realize that there is plenty wrong with us, about which plenty must be done... therefore, why would you start out trying to clean up the whole mess at the same time... no.. i think if i was a crack head and a drunk, i would go directly to na first as apparently the proof says drugs can can kill quicker.. so perhaps that's where i would start, then aa, if i still smoked some years later, then maybe i would check out a group for that problem. If there is anyone out there who can get it all at once, well then go for it.. i think that's great... and i would be the last one to try and be negative about something that wonderful, but aa's traditions are compiled from tried and tested experience, they work, and we are suppose to be the "guardians" of those traditions... and i see there are a few people here who seem to understand and do just that....what a comforting feeling that gives me. thanx i don't think it is good to smoke packs and packs a day.. but they say, first things first. Someone who smiles that yellow stained smile is to be looked upon as sick, not immoral, and i don't think it is appropriate for my peace of mind, to mistreat and badger them about it. i may express myself and i how i feel about it to them once, but anymore than that and i am now manipulating and trying to 'force something, and it makes me pretty uncomfortable to do that act. If i could get perfect all at once and not end up going backwards from the enormous stress load of it all, and if i thought it was a good idea, i would do it.


Member: mike
Location: indiana
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 03:05 PM

Comments

Mike here, Sobriety sucks. I have one day in again. Yipeeeee!!! If someone would like to talk about two, email me. michaelblodgett@hotmail.com


Member: Nancy
Location: Missouri
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 04:12 PM

Comments

Yep, yep, I would have to agree sobriety sucks somedays. I notice these days seem to be when I'm feeling sorry for myself for not being able to drink normally. Somedays being an alcoholic is just plain no fun. But you know what? No body promised me it was going to be all fun in sobriety. Life on life's terms is not exactly the way I want it to be. But it is the way it is supposed to be. So, I try to remember how bad it really was in my drinking days and then sobriety seems to suck less. In fact, somedays it's downright pleasant. Keep coming back. It works if you work it.


Member: Hankster
Location: Odessa
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 05:08 PM

Comments

Joe J from Ottawa, bless you and thank you. If more people had your attitude about respecting others, our world would be a better place. You are absolutely correct in saying that anyone who smokes should just put their smoking on hold for the one hour that a meeting lasts. But, as you observed, most smokers think they have a right to smoke whenever or wherever they want. Your words and actions show that not all smokers are so self-centered. Just another reason I like Canadians so much (whenever I go to Canada, y'all are soo friendly!). Thanks.


Member: D. M.
Location: Wisconsin
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 06:27 PM

Comments

It appears that there is some misunderstanding about the meaning of the Tenth Tradition. I will confess upfront that I an a lawyer who has worked with drafting and interpreting statutes for the last twenty years plus. So, forgive me in advance. (Remember, that Bill W and many of the early members who wrote the traditions were legally trained also). The view posted from the anonymous gentleman or lady - Copy/Past from the Coffee Pot - is a common one seen in A.A., but it is mistaken. This may explain why it is somewhat rambling, because it is difficult to express an invalid point. Assuming, arguendo, that the explanation proffered were correct, numerous unanswerable questions would immediately arise. First, what is an 'outside issue.' Is my home life an 'outside issue?' How about my work? How about illnesses I am suffering? How about world events that are troubling me? Second, who is appointed to decide in each meeting what is or is not an 'outside issue?' Does each group appoint a referee or does the group vote on the issue as it comes up? And can anyone raise the question when a person is sharing and call for a vote on whether it is an 'outside issue?' If a member relates the 'outside issue' to his or her alcoholism, is it then permissible? (i.e., Is is permissible to talk about your family problems if you say, 'I was about to drink because of what recently happened with my kids?' If so, then it would be permissible to say, 'I was about to drink because the war in Iraq is so wrong.' Next, it would be, 'I was about to drink because of all the smokers we have in this group.' The possiblities are endless.) Third, is there some authority or appeal process to demonstate what is or is not an 'outside issue?' Can anyone produce a listing of what are 'outside issues' and what are not? If a member disagrees with what is or is not an 'outside issue,' can that member bring it to the group conscience to vote on wheter it is permissible to discuss? Fourth, as for the hot topic here, if a group wants to vote on whether the group wants to be a smoking or non-smoking group, if the Coffee Pot analysis is correct, how would the members talk about the issue? (Someone could object because smoking is an 'outside issue'). - - - It is quite clear that the Tenth Tradition applies only to A.A. as a whole, as the tradition clearly states. That means the offical body, Alcoholics Anonymous, only and does not apply to any of the individual members. These members are free to talk about whatever they wish. (Look at the comments concerning the First Tradition in Twelve Steps and Tweleve Traditions). I hope no one takes offense as this is but one of the common misconceptions concerning the traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous.


Member: AZbill
Location: az-bill@mindspring.com
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 06:44 PM

Comments

Yes DM to all you said. The Fourth tradition takes care of that nicely. Each Group should be autonomous..Which means that it can pretty well do as it darn well pleases provided it does not affect other groups or AA as whole. Even the group rep (GSR)cannot voice his own opinion. He must take the groups message to district which must take the districts message to Area then on to New York. That is what is great about AA's structure..The higher you get, the least you have to say.. :) The individuals of the groups are the most important unit in AA. Thanks Bill


Member: Karen A.
Location: Florida
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 10:10 PM

Comments

Hello everyone! My father is an alcoholic and still drinks and when he does drink or comes home drunk, I leave the house. He is not going to put my sobriety into jeopardy. Last week I wrote about my boyfriend who is in drugcourt and allows me drink at strip clubs under his supervision and he also tested positive for pot. He loves his pot. Now he is in jail and the judge told him he needs to go to a 6-month program or being terminated from drugcourt. He will be away for awhile. I am happy and I know God did this for a reason. I need to find myself, hang out with the positive people, and learn to live on life's terms without drinking and drugging. I know if I stay with my boyfriend, i will get sicker and go down with him. Now that he's gone, I feel so much better and I have alot of support from friend's and family. I am well financially and I when I am good and ready, I will have my own home without having someone to control me and smoke pot around me. I'm in s safe place now and making AA my lifeline. God is watching over me and I'm grateful. Thanks or listening. God Blee!


Member: Batman
Location: New Mexico
Date: September 18, 2003
Time: 11:31 PM

Comments

Stay strong, Karen. Your direction is the correct one. At a recent sermon, the minister mentioned that if a person associates with negative people long enough, she will eventually absorb that negativity. My prayers will be with you.


Member: Jane C.
Location: Alaska
Date: September 19, 2003
Time: 02:58 AM

Comments

Jane C..I'm a grateful alcoholic today, as I was yesterday and again tomorrow,hopefully,I'm grateful for the posts on this site..I know so many people that need AA or this site, and they aren't sober long enough to hear anything...I'm not living with another alcoholic..for that I thank God..It's been easy for me to be able to get sober and to stay that way a day at a time, for that reason, and the fact that I also stay away from all those slippery places..there are just too many liquor stores and bars in the downtown shopping area..I go down sometime to bring groceries to my BF's son, but I let him get them from the car..I don't even get out.. His son also smokes Pot and it's something I've never done..so it never bothered me to be around other people that did, although his son knows that I think it's a NO, NO, so he's never done it in front of me.The desire for the drink has gone for now, and hopefully it never comes again..now I'm working on eating better and doing some excercise..both of which I couldn't get into while drinking and when first getting sober..now I'm into my 9th week..and I've mostly put away the candy and ice-cream..I was existing on a lot of sweets, I finally decided NO MORE..I learned a secret that might help someone.. a teaspoon of honey in a cup of tea will take away some food craving.. for me it's working, for three days I've really cut down on my sweets, and am even eating better..maybe it's just mind over matter, but if it works, great..May God give us his Grace for another soaber day tomorrow....


Member: Michael P Blodgett
Location: earth
Date: September 19, 2003
Time: 10:18 AM

Comments

Mike B here. Kelly M, You go girl. Got two in, Come on three!!!! michaelblodgett@hotmail.com


Member: Sarah
Location: back in KC
Date: September 19, 2003
Time: 07:39 PM

Comments

Batman))) Bless you good man, Bless you. You seem to have at least had D.M. from Wisconsin thinking and helping to clarify as you and he are both absolutely and positively, in every sense of the word, correct about what the tradition means. Sort of funny how that actually turned into the topic for the most part, and seems it was needed here. Thanks again as I love your shares. Thanks too Mr. or Ms. D.M. You guys are truly "a breath of fresh air," pleasing to both the hear and take in.


Member: Terry W
Location:
Date: September 19, 2003
Time: 08:10 PM

Comments

My husband is not an alcoholic but I am. I feel guilty sometimes because I want to say to him it's okay if he wants to have a beer. But it is a fact that it would bother me. He has stopped drinking to help me. I'm blessed to have a husband who understands.


Member: Pam B - Sobergirl91 at hotmail dot com
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Date: September 19, 2003
Time: 11:45 PM

Comments

Hi, I'm Pam, an alcoholic - please excuse me for sharing more than my allowed "once per week" this week but I'd like to respond to D.M.'s comments. Yes D.M. - if you asked for a topic to be help because you were in danger of drinking because of smokers (or any of the other examples you gave) - yes - that is an AA Topic & NOT an "outside issue" - because it is asking for help to keep from drinking. >>>>> But if you asked for any of those topics to be discussed for any other reason, that would make any of those topics an "outside issue" & NOT an AA Topic for discussion. >>>>> Its quite simple for any member to discern what is an AA Topic vs what would be an "outside issue" - All AA mtg Topics are any problem that pertains to alcoholism &/or the solution outlined in the BB (or it is an "outside issue") - The title is not "referee" - its the job of the chair-person to keep the discussion on track as an AA mtg. (seems this Early Sobriety mtg is in need of a chair-person, doesn't it?) >>>>> ie example: if I asked for the topic to be "how to deal w/world events so I won't drink over them" - that IS an AA topic & is not an "outside issue" - but if I asked for the topic to be something like "how can we find a solution to the world events going on today" - that is an "outside issue" that is NOT a topic for discussion IN an AA mtg. - (but you are free to discuss that topic all you like w/anyone interested after or outside of the mtg) >>>>> or you might ask for help to know how to not drink while facing criminal charges or divorce or whatever. But if you instead asked how to find a good attorney or how to go about filing for divorce or whether you should fight to keep the house or let it go (any NON alcohol related topics) would be "outside issues". - likewise for any of those others you gave for example to know how to discern what an "outside issue" is or isn't. >>>>> We alcoholics generally drank over anything to do w/life on life's terms, so in that sense - "anything to do w/life" is an AA topic as long as it pertains to how will this program/these 12 Steps/Principals show me to live inspite of it being exactly the way it is - without drinking over it. >>>>> again & in summary: If you asked for the topic to be what to do about smoking being allowed in an AA mtg because it is a threat to your sobriety - yes - that would be an AA Topic (because you are asking for help how to stay sober in a situation that threatens your sobriety) >>>>> If you belong to a home group where you participate in a monthly Group Conscience mtg amongst those home group members - that GC mtg is FOR presenting problems & concerns about what takes place during that groups' AA mtgs. You may present ANY questions or concerns to the group, ask for discussion, the other members' views on it & ask for a vote to be taken on it. AND for that matter, groups may vote to ask their GSR to present any issues of concern at the Area Assembly. & from the Area it would be voted whether to take it to NY. We are not under any sort of "corporate AA dictatorship" - as AZbill said - we the individual members of each group are the most important unit - we ARE "AA" - we are the voice of what is & what isn't AA - what comes from corporate rule or conference approved literature or what is an "outside issue" vs what isn't - comes from us - the individual members. In the Unity of the Fellowship we agree to abide by the ruling vote. If we do not get active in the program as an active member/participant of what goes on in our individual home group - our vote is not being cast - our voice is not being heard - but that does not mean that "we" are not "AA as whole" nor that Corporate AA is dictating over us - it simply means we were too irresonsible, lazy &/or indifferent to get off our duffs & participate in what goes on. >>>>>> to the one who prefers to view AA as a "substance abuse program" - very well if that is what it is for you, but I am not a 'substance abuser' - I am an alcoholic, addicted to alcohol since my very 1st drink. I did not "become" eventually addicted to it from the over-use & abuse of it. If you did - thats what it is for you. Keep at it.


Member: D. M.
Location: Wisconsin
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 02:29 AM

Comments

Pam B, thank you for illustrating so well the issue at hand of the Tenth Tradition. Applying the logic you have expressed, then a person can talk about whatever he or she wants, so long as that person states, 'This affects my alcoholism.' In such case, there is no such thing as an outside issue. It is just a matter of a person needing to rephrase his or her question to include the magic words, 'This affects my alcholism.' Using one of your examples, I would not be permitted to ask in a meeting, 'How do I go about filing for a divorce?' but I would be allowed to ask, 'I'm afraid I might drink if I don't know how to get a divorce, so how do I go about filing for a divorce.' Thus, A.A. becomes like the child's game of Simon Says. Everything is permissible so long as you preface it with 'Simon Says,' in this case, 'This affects my alcoholism.' I hope you can see the frivolity of such an application of the Tenth Tradition. Additionally, your suggestion that the chairperson monitor the 'outside issue' matter is filled with danger. If you invest the chairperson with such authority, it may be wielded inappropriately. For example, as chairperson, I may intensly dislike some of my fellow A.A. members and 'rule' that anything they want to share about is an 'outside issue' and then cut them off from speaking. Again, with all due respect, your suggestion fails. I thank you for making it clear that those who seek to make the Tenth Tradition apply to meetings are gravely in error by showing how unworkable such an approach is. The Tenth Tradition applies only the the offical body of A.A., and has no application at discussion meetings. - - - Thank you for your kind words, Sarah back in KC. I can see from you shares that you are an intelligent and educated person. This post gains from enlightened insight.


Member: A regular reader
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 09:06 AM

Comments

PAM B, The steps and the traditions are suggested guidelines not rules. The same as this one..... 'The Early Sobriety Meeting of Staying Cyber was created so that those new to sobriety would have a comfortable place to ask any question that they might have. Each week a topic will be chosen from a suggested list to start the meeting. Those with less than one year may share on that or any other topic as often as they wish. Whether it be answering a question or sharing, we ask others - those with more than one year - to limit their shares to once per week and to keep that share to less than 300 words so that all may have an opportunity to participate in the 12th step work. As you have already shown, many members of AA interpret the guidelines in their own way. This is a page where newcomers should feel safe to discuss whatever issues they like without being harangued by oldtimers. Please try to respect that. There are some wonderful messages of hope from many of you here. Thank you so much for carrying the message.


Member:
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 10:41 AM

Comments

Hellloooooo......are there any newcommers out there ;)


Member: Nadine
Location: Canandaigua,NY
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 10:41 AM

Comments

Hellloooooo......are there any newcommers out there ;)


Member:
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 10:45 AM

Comments

Hellooooooo.....Are there any newcommers on this page......sounds like a bunch of bleeding decons ;)


Member:
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 10:45 AM

Comments

Hellooooooo.....Are there any newcommers on this page......sounds like a bunch of bleeding decons ;)


Member:
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 10:45 AM

Comments

Hellooooooo.....Are there any newcommers on this page......sounds like a bunch of bleeding decons ;)


Member:
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 10:45 AM

Comments

Hellooooooo.....Are there any newcommers on this page......sounds like a bunch of bleeding decons ;)


Member:
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 10:45 AM

Comments

Hellooooooo.....Are there any newcommers on this page......sounds like a bunch of bleeding decons ;)


Member:
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 11:12 AM

Comments

Sorry :( My hard drive is verrrrry sloooowwwww


Member: Bill D.
Location: N.H
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 12:53 PM

Comments

Hey,Im a newcomer and I am certainly an alcoholic. My life is surrounded by active users and drunks who put out their hands every day to help me achieve the unachieveable goal of staying sober. The A.A fellowship has brought me thru 9 months of hell. I am still sober today and I will thank my higher power this evening. This website is cool enough, but some of you need to stop throughing your big book at each other and realize all most newcomers want is hope nd help quitting drinking. Go to a meeting say hello and get some personalized attention. see the help and the love that a fellow alcohilic is willing to give. Luv ya all. Congrats to all who are here,pray for those of us who are still sick and suffering.


Member: Wanda B
Location: Georgia
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 01:11 PM

Comments

Hello, my name is Wanda and I'm an alcoholic. After four years of sobriety, I started drinking again. My sponsor suggested that I try on-line meetings. I'd like to be sober again, but I've relapsed three times, and only make it a couple months each time. My first two years of sobriety were a gift. It seemed effortless, joyful, fun, perfect. Third year was good, but the fourth was a struggle. My sister had financial problems and solved them by jumping off a 12 story building. Despite therapy, exercise, good nutrition, meditation, and supportive family and friends, nothing seemed to hold back the horror of her death. I stayed sober for a year after she died, then we got more bad news I won't go into just now, and I made a decision to drink. I couldn't stand how I felt, and the drinking actually helped for a while. I didn't feel like I had to crawl out my skin. Before long, however - maybe a couple months or so - I was drunk and sick. I want to be well again. I hope this is relevant, and acceptable for this meeting. It's my first visit. If anyone cares to comment, or offer their strength and experience, I would welcome it. Best to all


Member: Carrie
Location: Los Angeles
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 02:29 PM

Comments

Thank you Wanda - your share is very important to me. I have 8 months of sobriety, after three relapses as well. This is the most time I have had, my first 6 months were easy-breezey, I really got that great feeling and felt sure about my need for sobriety. Since I hit 6 months though, it has been super tough. Obsession to drink comes in and out pretty hard and I am so over sensitive lately, everything hurts. It's my disease, it's real and it's wanting out of it's cage. When I think in terms of this thing wanting to hurt me enough so that I will drink or kill myself, I pray for God to relieve me from it and ask him to return me to sanity. I have had that sanity, that is what gives me the strength to keep fighting and it is what gives me hope that things will get better if I work for them. I really appreciate it when people who have had time and relapsed share about their experience. It reminds me that I am not EVER gonna get over this thing, and that I must be vigilant in my recovery. I needed those three relapses to prove to myself that I am an alcoholic, all I need now is to remember that I am an alcoholic every day and work this program and I wont have to drink again or kill myself. It's simple, but it's not easy.


Member: Kat
Location:
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 02:32 PM

Comments

Hey Wanda - I am a "newly sober" alcoholic and want you to know that you are not alone and I will keep you in my prayers. You will come back even stronger. One of the good things about AA (of many, many good things) is that everyone thinks about their sobriety one day at a time and in that sense, we're all just beginning again each day. I tried to quit so many times on my own and "white knuckled it" as they say. Last night at a meeting I heard someone call it a "dry drunk" and I had never heard that expression before. Yeah, that was me for sure. AA has given me a solid foundation to build upon and I love the support at the f2f meetings and on line. Be gentle and compassionate with yourself and allow yourself to really feel your pain. Drinking only buries it deeper and you know that it will only explode on you some day and it is never the answer. Get yourself a good journal and write all your feelings down. I'm so very sorry for the loss of your sister... but you are still here and have important work left to do on this earth. Give it all to God, for he can handle anything, you don't have to bear it all on your own shoulders. He is waiting to take it from you and lighten your load. With love and prayers, Kat


Member: Tracy
Location: Essex, England
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 04:24 PM

Comments

(((CARRIE))) I have lost all my email addys could you PLEASE mail me so I have got yours again. Listen I can so relate to where you are as you know, but remember GOD loves tryers and if you keep trying he will give you the strenght you need. Remember just want to want to stay sober is a good one to remember on them not so good days! Stay strong and email me Your sobriety sis across the waves tracy.v@ntlworld.com


Member: Tracy
Location: Essex. England
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 04:37 PM

Comments

(((WANDA)))


Member: Jane C.
Location: Alaska
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 05:10 PM

Comments

Jane C..an alcoholic.my sobriety date is July 14th,2003..after a relapse..I was sober for 18 years when it all went to pieces..WANDA.. I had a similar loss..losing my sister to an auto accident..not her fault..yours is a bit more difficult..I didn't drink at that time..it was a few years later with my husbands struggling for twe years with cancer, then his death..I picked up wine again just to be able to relax at night..just a glass or two..this went on for quite a while because I HAD to stay in control..it took me about 3 years stopping and starting again before I couldn't stand the way I felt..I prayed a lot for help, asking God to keep me sane until I could stop...one night I found this site and have been sober since the first posting and reading all that is posted here...there is a lot of hope in what these other alcoholics offer to us...forget about all the negative things you might read..this post is just what I need for now, I will eventually get back to regular meetings too, but I hope to read and post here as long as the site is on line...Good-Luck, Wanda, you can do it, if you want it badly enough, keep trying to stop.. and put your faith in your Higher Power, who for me is God..


Member: Wanda B
Location: Georgia
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 07:06 PM

Comments

Just a quick note to express deep appreciation to Carrie, Kat and June C. for giving much needed support to me, and Tracy thanks for the hugs. June, my heart goes out to you. Death changes the landscape of our lives so much, whether it's sudden or slow. I didn't know what it meant to feel relaxed until I picked up, either. I could barely stand to be in my own skin. I want to learn better ways to relax. Thanks for the encouragement. Today, I also found an on-line meeting for women that is wonderful. I need to hear the experiences of men and women, but I really have needed to connect with AA women. Glad to know all of you. Best,


Member: Wanda B
Location: Georgia
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 07:08 PM

Comments

So sorry Jane C. - I called you June. I really do need glasses! xoxoxo


Member: BABE
Location: lets talk about turkey's
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 09:20 PM

Comments

((Pam B)) get a load of buddy trying to be Mr. Lawyer, and then praising himself back and forth..using the alias of Sarah from KC....ha ha.. and i thought i was bad for having conversations with myself... buddy is the KING! of conversations with himself)) ha ha... I wonder if he gets tired alot.. well i for one am in totally agreement with you Pam.. and not for boot licks and brownie points with ya honey, cause i don't roll that way.. i just really genuinely agree with you on this point of breaking tradition. ((And no one in the world can tell me that a newcomer is suppose to "not get totally confused" when he see's a bunch of posts REHASHING THE should be dead issue of smoking tobacco)) Cause i can garantee it will happen... and it does therefore hurt aa as a whole. Look, if you want to discuss smoking once, maybe twice at a discussion meeting because it is pertaining to how you used the steps to stop or yada yada, that's one thing, but to rehash the issue and all its effects over and over is misleading to the new ones and breaking tradition. Wouldn't it make a heap more sense to go to smokers anonymous?.. in fact anyone got the e-mail addy for info on that for anyone else who needs to talk tobbaco? i mean discussions are discussions, but there is this thing called "primary purpose" and there are these people called the washintonians who "forgot that" Why the hell would i go to a shoe shop to talk turkey?... maybe once, or even twice, but to keep bringing it up over and over... dont' you think the shoe clerk would eventually advise me on how to get to the nearest turkey farm after a few weeks of it? hmmm ? does the word sanity mean anything to you? (Hey buddy boy.... why don't you start your own "smokers-alanon" for people who cant cope with filthy smokers and get on with it already, your in the wrong place pal... (don't take it personally honey...its just some of us have more experience strength and hope, as we either been around longer, or studied up a bit more, or been in service alot. you might want to try it if you stay.


Member: mmmmmmm
Location: ffffeeeeeeeeeelss better
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 11:21 PM

Comments

farrrrrrrrrrrt seeeeeeeeee yooooooooooou in the air he heeeeeeeeeeeee just kidding so sick people say get well and god bless the sick people out there aman


Member: mmmmmmm
Location: ffffeeeeeeeeeelss better
Date: September 20, 2003
Time: 11:22 PM

Comments

farrrrrrrrrrrt seeeeeeeeee yooooooooooou in the air he heeeeeeeeeeeee just kidding so sick people say get well and god bless the sick people out there aman


Member: Kerry C
Location: TX
Date: September 21, 2003
Time: 12:23 AM

Comments

Kerry here an alcoholic. Just wanted to pop in to say I picked up my 6 month coin tonight :) I remember when I came back to the program 6 months ago. I couldn't imagine going 2 days without drinking. I had been drinking everyday for 10 years not because I wanted to but because I had to. A friend of mine that posts here emailed me awhile back and shared this with me which has helped me everyday since. "God has given me the freedom to chose to drink or not to drink." Or something very close to that. That has also happened in my life. It was and still is profound to me. You see 6 months ago I had no choice in the matter. Today I do. If I drink today or tomorrow it is because I have consciously made that choice. God has kept his end of the bargin and removed the obsession to drink. It is up to me to keep my end of the bargin and not drink. Hoping everyone has a safe and sober weekend. If you're new around here, ignore the disrupter. They/He/She/It feeds off of responses to posts and has but one primary purpose; to disrupt and create disharmony.


Member:
Location:
Date: September 21, 2003
Time: 01:21 AM

Comments

they say stick with the winners thats why i'm a soul man


Member: Dennis
Location: PA
Date: September 21, 2003
Time: 02:05 AM

Comments

Kerry C, thanks for your sensible comments. We're supposed to be helping and caring for each other here. I agree with you - we should just ignore the negative thoughts, and insted offer encouragement and hope. Cassey C, my prayers are with you. Asking your Higher Power to help you by taking over your will so that you can do His will may help. I do it first thing in the morning, several times during the day, and last thing at night. Wanda, bless you, and my prayers are with you, too. For a new way to relax, how about YOGA? Or serious prayer asking your Higher Power to take away your difficulties so you can help others? Carrie, God bless you, too. Relapses do happen, but after one of them (maybe this one?) you'll finally "get it". I think of myself as alergic to alcohol. Other people may be able to drink sensibly, but I can't. Kat's idea to get a journal is a great one. When I'm feeling stressed out, I usually don't even know what's bothering me. But if I write in my journal, the problem comes to the surface real fast. It's just a good way to have a deep and meaningful conversation with yourself. It really works. And remember, you have a Higher Power who loves you and wants to help you. I really like your thought Kerry C, that God has given us the freedom to choose to drink or not to drink. It's not always easy, but we do have the choice. Hope this helps someone. There is a lot of good on this site, but we sometimes have to weed out the negative stuff. Here's hoping for a sober 24 hours for everyone.


Member: Jane C.
Location: Alaska
Date: September 21, 2003
Time: 02:54 AM

Comments

Jane C..alcoholic here again..I would just like to say a few words to all who have relapsed..it's what I learned my first time with AA..I heard said that if we ever relapse or slip as some call it, DO NOT FEEL GUILTY..it's a waste of time.. we should just be grateful for whatever sobriety we had before we relapsed...just think how much sicker we would be without that time..for me, I only felt guilty WHILE I was drinking, because that person wasn't the real me, and I didn't want to do or say anything that could hurt anyone..I did feel like a failure when I had a hard time staying away from aloohol..but I know that God has given me the strength to stay sober for today..I won't think about tomorrow until it gets here..once I stopped drinking and could think straight, I put away all the guilt and just started over, and thanked God for the years of sobriety that He mercfully helped get me through..I think if I carried around a lot of guilt, I'd probably want to drink again..the best thing being sober has done for me is to make me feel totally FREE, just to be who I am and not to care what others may think..I pray God will give us all a sober day tomorrow..


Member: A regular reader
Location:
Date: September 21, 2003
Time: 03:56 AM

Comments

((Pam B))..I apologise for getting angry. ((Everyone))..Thank you for sharing your experience, strength and hope. It helps keep me sober each day.