Member: Paul
Location:
Date: 8/19/01
Time: 1:29:15 PM

Comments

My topic. When you get involved with AA is it so important to stick to rules that prohibit you to stand up and be counted


Member: ML
Location: San Diego
Date: 8/19/01
Time: 2:38:24 PM

Comments

Hi, guys -

This is probably still one of my favorite meetings. I have to admit I'm puzzled by the topic, though... is Paul (with the "that prohibit you to stand up and be counted" part)talking about ego-busting? Anyway, if by the rules, he means doing the steps and doing service (to me, the backbone/foundation of the program), I agree. I don't make it to a face-to-face meeting every day, and I don't always read the literature as much as is suggested, but if I stay conscious of what step I'm on and am willing to do it in whatever way my sponsor suggests, I'm working on me. When I do service in AA (I also do service outside AA but am learning that doing it within the program brings unbelievable rewards) I'm helping God to work on others and I end up being "worked on," too, in the process.

I think AA is a wonderful program... it is such a simple and beautiful guide for living that I sometimes almost feel sorry for people who aren't alcoholics/addicts, because they miss out on the rebirth that can come with being taken down by the addiction, bottoming out, surrendering and then having the door open to a new way of life. I do see God in the life of people who don't have it, and I know that many of them are "taken care of," too. But I know that, since discovering the program, it has become my "church" - and that doesn't mean I favor Christianity over other spiritual systems.

Well, those are my musings on what seems to be the topic. It's very hot here and I have a rough day of trying to focus on at-home proofreading and writing despite the neighborhood's weekend noisiness, my current headache, etc. But I started the day with the third step/prayer, and will turn things over to my higher power all day, whenever I feel fear or control, etc., creep back into my consciousness. And so I expect it to be a good day.

Best wishes to all!


Member: John,L
Location: Newark,De
Date: 8/19/01
Time: 4:12:08 PM

Comments

Hi my names John Alkie/Addict as far as standing up and being counted i'm not quite sure what you meen,as far as going to the news paper an announcing i'm in A.A. no,I don't think so. but if I talking to some one that ask me about myself and it come up in conversation that i'm in recovery I don't care, cause most people knew I was a Drunken Junky,,,so what does it matter if they know i'm in recovery.

Also A.A. is so big now a days that to stand up as one and be counted might not be what the founders had in mind when they wrote the traditions,,,but for my own curiosity there are days when I wonder how big we really are,,,cause no matter where i've traveled i've always been able to find a meeting,and when I go to conventions and we take over the whole town"LOL" it makes me feel good to know that i'm not alone.

i'm not sure if this answers your ? at all. but all I know is i'm glad to be one of the numbers who was able to find this program,before I killed Myself or someone Else! John.L Newark,De


Member: Corinne B.
Location: Home
Date: 8/19/01
Time: 5:22:11 PM

Comments

What I hear Paul asking is this: "Is humility really a necessary part of being a sober member of AA?"

Yes, I believe it is very important to become a member among members; a worker among workers. There is no King of AA. Humility is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions. Humility is the meaning of the word anonymity when used in that sentence, from what I've studied in 12&12 meetings with others.

I was tempted to sign this as "Humility Seeker" but refrain from using aliases, because I feel I ought to own what I believe in nowadays. It has been such a long road to even get to the point of feeling okay about having an opinion, or feeling like it was okay that I actually decided upon what was right or wrong for me in this world based on me & HP's design, and not based on what others might say or think of me (which is none of my business).

Humility does not mean my self-esteem has to stay shot. Quite the opposite. It means, to me, that I now have the comfortability to be at peace in my own skin, no matter what, and that I no longer am concerned with whether I'm at the top of some heap or not.

I'm very content with being a part of things these days, instead of being apart from them all the time, feeling separate and outside the mainstream, just because of my old terminal uniqueness, and the desire not to conform. What I hadn't realized all those years ago, by trying so hard to be different, I was just like all the rest of the folks striving to be different, so we were all the same - just a bunch of dead-beat losers! LOL!! It's so funny looking back in time at all of that now!

Thanks for the topic on humility, Paul. Good work. Keep trudging on and you won't get trudged upon.


Member: Don R
Location: Savannah, GA
Date: 8/19/01
Time: 6:00:20 PM

Comments

Hi, Don here, alcoholic and addict. It has been said that this is a self-diagnosed disease. I cannot tell you that you are an alcoholic and vice-versa. I am a newcomer, so consider my opinion as being from one whose view is still quite hazed....I do believe humility is an important part of self-actualization. In time, I will feel more comfortable in sharing my knowledge and acceptance of this disease with outsiders. I really have no reason to be ashamed. I'm just in the lucky 10% according to current statistics of those who are biologically "hooked" before they even drink.

I fully support this theory as I can remember my first experience with alcohol resulted in over-indulgence and inebriation. I was very young, probably only 8 or 9. I'm 27 now and for the longest time blamed not being able to stop as a weakness of willpower, spirituality, etc. I now have around 45 days sober in intensive-outpatient treatment and have learned so much that was never revealed to me (or I just didn't want to hear) in high-school or in two years of college level psychology. Thanks to AA, I now have a much higher opinion of myself and a more thorough understanding of this disease as being "cunning, baffling, and powerful".

On the other hand, if I'm going into a job interview with a potential employer, I'm not going to introduce myself as an alcoholic and addict! (IMHO)A certain level of annonymity should be respected as part of the recovery process.

P.S. Thanks to everyone who shared on my topic two weeks ago on dealing with withdrawls. I gained alot from your posts.


Member: John H
Location: Indiana
Date: 8/19/01
Time: 6:33:38 PM

Comments

Hello, I am a recovering alcoholic! If one has reached the point when alcohol has control and has made one's life, unmanageable--that is especially the time to stand up and confess of being an alcoholic; to be counted as one in need of AA.That is the first step for recovery.

It may be too early to expect humbleness, but if one works each step after being counted, so to speak--then gratitude can be expected as a result of the positive changes in one's life.

There are no rules that say that one has to work the steps. But if one wants to stop drinking, a day at a time, he/she must do so to stop drinking, to attain peace of mind thru spiritual growth.

The program does not require perfection, only progress. And progress itself can be one that some temporary downs. But if the ups are consistent to establish a progressive trend, one's life and emotional balance are continuing to improve.

Take the journey with the desire to quit drinking, a day at a time. You will not regret it. Bon voyage and God's will!


Member: magpie152@hotmail.com
Location: hutch ks
Date: 8/19/01
Time: 8:40:26 PM

Comments

the words rules and prohibit are really not the way i would discribe the aa i have come to love. i am so glad the people let me be who i was and make all the mistakes i wanted to. i learned alot from those mistakes. no one does it perfectly. all i can do is hope for progress. i have been a rule breaker and still excepted into the aa fold. i finally desided to start living the steps and trying to do what i thought was gods will for me after years of doing it my way. oh well i think that if i dont drink today and lay my head down sober i am a winner. dos 12-10-82


Member: Anna T.
Location: Southern California
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 2:41:36 AM

Comments

Hi there, my name is Anna and I am an alcoholic. Now maybe this changes the topic a little, but I know I have seen addicts get frustrated because they were trying to share at an A.A. meeting and were told not to. Were you talking about that, Paul or am I way off base? I'm not clear on what you wanted the topic to be.


Member: Tom
Location: FL
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 5:39:30 AM

Comments

What do "LOL" and "IMHO" mean?


Member: sonia and cat
Location: uk
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 6:47:12 AM

Comments

Hello world

I thought that the program would mean that people could walk all over me, not allowed to fight back, not allowed to stand up for my rights, but in actuallity it doesnt work that way.

people are more likely to listen to me today, because i talk without attacking, without abuse. (not all the time) People can only hurt me if i let them. I get my way, more often now than ever before. and the contradiction is that i dont need to get things my way more than ever before, i have respect so people listen. I also respect others for thier opinion. Viva la difference. In the early days having to back out of arguements, haveing to retreat was needed because i didnt know how to voice an opinion without being defensive and getting angry. Today i dont have to do that, because for the most part i dont react, i think and i share, and i talk, actually saying what i mean for a change. I guess i can do that more often now, because i realise more often that i cannot change the outcome, i am not god, i am just a person with views and feelings.

somehow people are much more ready to listen to someone who appears happy and not to have an agenda, than someone who is angry and chasing an outcome.

dont know if that is what your question was.


Member: Phil.......
Location: New Hampshire
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 7:18:50 AM

Comments

Hi Everyone: Im an alcoholic and my name is Phil. By definition AA not ever be organized, we either endorse nor oppose any cause. The only rule I know of is the desire to stop drinking. I know when I first started coming around I got plenty of suggestions, try listening and not speaking, figure out who you are before you open your mouth and remove all doubt, stuff like that. Those were only suggestions. Maybe there are some meeting that have different rules, but you are always welcome to find other meeting. Meetings are a varied as the people who attend them. As for the suggestions...I found my recovery progressed by leeps and bounds when I did start excepting that others might know more than me. I hope that everyone will have as goodof a day as I am going to have, alive and sober. Thanks


Member: Joe L.
Location: Phila, PA - USA
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 7:53:28 AM

Comments

Good Morning All; Joe here, definitely an alcoholic.

PAUL: Thanks for the topic.

TOM: Here's what I know, ok?


Member: Joe L.
Location: Phila, PA - USA
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 8:13:27 AM

Comments

Good Morning All; Joe here, definitely an alcoholic.

PAUL: Thanks for the topic.

TOM: Here's what I know, ok? LOL: Laugh out loud IMHO: In my humble opinion LMAO: Laugh my ass off LMAO/ROTFL: Laugh my ass off/Roll on the floor laughing ESH: Experience, strength and hope HLAYK: Here's looking at you kid (My personal favorite from Corrinne B. on this site)

Now to the topic at hand. When I first came into A.A., I needed direction. I needed people to tell me what to do. I realize now, that noone was telling me what to to do. They were "suggesting" things to me. Paul, I believe I was very much the individual. I was someone different everyday because I didn't know who I was. One day, I wore a football jersey and I was a football player. The next day, I wore overalls and I was a farmer. I guess the everage person isn't as sick as I was. At my group, you could tell who someone's sponsor was by the way they talked. We were all imitators. I know today that I am just one of many. I think you can stand up and be counted in your outside life, you just can't bring A.A. into it. Does that make any sense? I hope so, because I don't know what I just said. What I do know is that I life I have today is because of A.A. and the people in it. I would never want to do anything to harm them. I do have an "outside" life. There are a lot of people who do not know I am in A.A. My sponsor (my best friend) is in A.A. My closest friend are in A.A. I'm close to some people at work, but I don't think they could ever share this special bond. I hope you all have a great week. Peace, Out...

LeachFtown@aol.com


Member: AndyM
Location: W.Pa.
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 12:42:40 PM

Comments

I am confused, if we wre talking about expressing our views then we do that at every meeting we share.What works for me may not necessarily work for someone else,however as long as it works for me that is good enough for me. AA says we have no opinon on outside issues, that is true in other words the GSO will not come out with an opinion one way or another that deviates from the Big Book, I am lost on this topic I express my views at area meetings and group conscience meetings all of the time, just because I am in the program doesnt prohibit me from voting for the candidate of my choice or an issue that may arise in society, when I was drinking I had a lot less choice than I do now, at least now I can make a rational decision instead of a drunken one.


Member: AndyM
Location: W.Pa
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 1:14:02 PM

Comments

I would like to clarify my above mentioned post, when I attend area meetings as a representative of the groups in the district i represent then and only then do I speak for that district, I leave my personal opinions outside the door and I speak or vote as to the wishes of that district.When I voice an opinion in a group conscience then I am speaking for myself and I make it clear that I am speaking for myself and not another group within the district.You know just because we are to practice humility doesnt mean we cant be assertive,Mhatma ghandi was a very humble man however he was also very assertive.I beleive that when the founders of AA came up with outside issue thing they were saying that AA will not endorse or condemm any issue outside the parameters of AA.In other words we can not allow any group within the fellowship to state there position as a group either endorsing or rejecting an outside issue.As an individual I have every right to express my opinion.


Member: Bonny G.
Location: Hot Springs, AR
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 1:17:56 PM

Comments

Hi, Bonny, grateful recoverying alcoholic. Paul, I don't know the rule that prohibits me from standing up and being counted in AA. The group I attend has a "group conscience." Suggestions are made and voted on at business meetings of my group. I've often been the one to have a suggestion not accepted, but I must remember, I only have one opinion, there are those with wiser opinions than mine. AA is a life saver to the alcoholic who wants to get sober. Having my own issuses foreshadow over the group's best interest is not important any longer. I'm a part of that group, principles before personalities, I don't have to agree with everything that is done, but I have to respect the group's decision to make choices for the benefit of the group. To my knowledge, there is no rule that says you can't find another group of AA's to be a part of. If I'm unhappy with the group I'm at, that's my fault for staying there. Some groups are governed by "bleeding deacons," but you do have a choice as to whether or not you are a member of that group. Thanks for allowing me to share.


Member: Rabb,C
Location:
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 2:40:25 PM

Comments

Hello, I was instructed by the court to attend 2 meetings per week. I was convicted of a DUI. I am not an alcoholic or drug addict. I made one mistake drinking some wine and then getting be hind the wheel. That does not make me an alcolic becuase I had some wine while at a friends home. Rabb


Member: Jennifer B
Location: MA
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 2:45:07 PM

Comments

I think Paul is talking about the 3 month sobriety rule, no speaking at meetings till then


Member: RA
Location: Army
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 4:10:01 PM

Comments

JenniferB I have heard of that rule however I dont know of any groups in the area I live in who abide by it.That would be a good post for the Coffee Pot.


Member: Bonny G.
Location: AR
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 4:18:27 PM

Comments

Sorry to come back on line, but I've been in the program of AA since Oct. 10, 1993 and the first time in 1989, with a four month slip till I got back into the program. But never have I heard of the 3 month sobriety rule. Newcomers are the life of AA to me, they and their opinions count as far as I am concerned. I'm sorry to take up extra space, but if the old timers had of told me to be quiet for three months, I would have died a drunk. Am I alone on this or has anyone else heard of this rule that Jennifer mentioned?


Member: Jim H
Location: Mpls
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 5:29:49 PM

Comments

A very wise AA'r once told me the object of my involvement in AA was to "develop a manner of living which makes it unneccessary for me to drink." This in fact is my ambition, it is the reason I go to AA meetings. I go so that I may learn from the experience, strenth and hope of other members how best to attain this goal. I do not go to meetings so that I can be recognized and have my opinion heard. Early in my sobriety, my sponsor used to tell me to shut up and listen, if he or anyone else wanted my opinion, they would ask for it, (they never did ask.)

I believe my sponsor was trying to save me from myself. To a certain extent it could be likened to going to a brain surgery seminar. I would have nothing of value to contribute but that would not necessarily prevent me from doing so. Early on in our sobriety, we are far more likely to be "spreading the disease" with our opinions rather than contributing to the recovery.


Member: Jim H
Location: Mpls
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 5:30:20 PM

Comments

A very wise AA'r once told me the object of my involvement in AA was to "develop a manner of living which makes it unneccessary for me to drink." This in fact is my ambition, it is the reason I go to AA meetings. I go so that I may learn from the experience, strenth and hope of other members how best to attain this goal. I do not go to meetings so that I can be recognized and have my opinion heard. Early in my sobriety, my sponsor used to tell me to shut up and listen, if he or anyone else wanted my opinion, they would ask for it, (they never did ask.)

I believe my sponsor was trying to save me from myself. To a certain extent it could be likened to going to a brain surgery seminar. I would have nothing of value to contribute but that would not necessarily prevent me from doing so. Early on in our sobriety, we are far more likely to be "spreading the disease" with our opinions rather than contributing to the recovery.


Member: myrtle
Location: lowell, nc
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 5:34:17 PM

Comments

What? An Order? I can't go through with it!! I've never seen an alcoholic who would be prohibited by anything or anyone! I think the discussion leader proved once again that any person in A.A. given the opportunity will talk about anything they want to. That is the beauty of it!!


Member: Old AAer
Location: US
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 7:55:04 PM

Comments

In my case, I always awaited my turn to speak, and when "I had the floor" so to speak, if I had something to say that I knew in my heart was right, why then I would say it! If any or all at the meeting didn't agree with what I had to say and I still knew in my heart I said the right thing, it didn't bother me what others thought or said contrary to what I said! The old saying "you can't please them all" applies here, and if I knew I might plant a seed that could cause others at the meeting to "Think!" on, well maybe I helped somebody even if it took a while to grow in a hearer! I am not talking about using foul language, or saying some infantile or assinine thing that is more destructive to the hearers than anything else, but honestly trying to contribute some positive thoughts to the meeting, for after all this is the way I was helped in AA! So if the above helps anyone who might read this, then, even though I might never know about it, but God as I understand Him surely knows about it! That's good enough for me!!


Member: Virginia b
Location: New Jersey
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 8:38:18 PM

Comments

I've found that there are plenty of meetings where the "leader" or the loudest people havn't been working their own program. When you are new, this can be taken as prohibiting, I've seen real desperate people turned off of AA because of actions that were downright bigshot. There are other meetings around, all over, all that needs to be done, is go around to different meetings, try and get the "feel" of the meeting, and when you find one that you feel less prohibited in, stay at that one. I had to move from MA to NJ to find meetings I could open up in. Not everyone has to move the way I did, (I had family in NJ)but that is just a drastic example of finding the right meeting. It's smart to start sobriety listening to others rather tha your own stinking thinking, I know I had to do this, because I could talk my self out of a meeting, I could let other people I had conflict with chase me away, I finally learned with help, how to live program, and that wasn't until I found a meeting I could open up in.


Member: IN A HURRY
Location: HELLBOUND
Date: 8/20/01
Time: 11:06:46 PM

Comments

PAUL YOU STUPID ASSHOLE. WHAT A TOPIC KNOW ONE UNDERSTAND`S YOUR DRUNK ASS. WHY DON`T WE ALL GO GET DRUNK OR HIGH !!! I WILL GET INVOLVED. I`LL BUY THE FIRST ROUND, SO LET`S GO DRINK TILL WE`VE HAD ENOUGH.


Member: Josie
Location: KS
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 12:53:30 AM

Comments

Thanks, Paul, for the topic: "when you get involved with AA is it so important to stick to rules that prohibit you to stand up and be counted."

I'm Josie, an alcoholic. It is important for me to abide by AA Traditions because without these, there is no AA.

Every AA group has their own set of rules, apart from AA Traditions. I had to find a group that allowed movement among its members, which includes, hearing from the newly arrived members / visitors.

Resentments are the number one killer of alcoholics.

Thanks.


Member: Brenda M.
Location: Shawnee, OK
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 4:02:23 AM

Comments

Hey, Brenda here Alcoholic Addict. Some older sponsors say sit down and be quiet for 30 days here in Oklahoma, but thank God mine didn't. I start my sponsorees on sharing the minute they ask me to help. I need to hear it still isn't working. Paul after awhile it isn't so important to be counted or it least thats how it was for me. I been sober and clean since June 11, 1993 and I still have days I don't feel good enough or worth. Thats where steps, books, sponsors, telephone, God, and meetings save my life. I am new to this meeting and I think I will come back, Thanks for the topic and thanks for letting me share.


Member: Lisa A.
Location: AZ
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 5:25:13 AM

Comments

Hello,my name is Lisa and I'm an alcoholic. I think it depends on how your meetings are run. I'm a newcomer and all newcomers are encouraged to speak.(in my group) They say(in my group) that they need to hear the newcomers speak so that they can always be reminded how difficult and scared they were at onetime also. I personally didnt speak but felt more at ease knowing these complete strangers wanted to hear my story and really cared. It was what made me come back and keeps me coming back. Thank you for letting me share.God bless.


Member: Lisa A.
Location: AZ
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 5:25:42 AM

Comments

Hello,my name is Lisa and I'm an alcoholic. I think it depends on how your meetings are run. I'm a newcomer and all newcomers are encouraged to speak.(in my group) They say(in my group) that they need to hear the newcomers speak so that they can always be reminded how difficult and scared they were at onetime also. I personally didnt speak but felt more at ease knowing these complete strangers wanted to hear my story and really cared. It was what made me come back and keeps me coming back. Thank you for letting me share.God bless.


Member: AL K
Location: PA
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 6:18:50 AM

Comments

I was taught that there are no rules or regulations in AA. The group's conscience which is guided by a Higher Power, and love for our fellowship makes the decisions for a home group. Suggestions have been made to me by my sponsors and the group since the beginning. Sometimes, very strong suggestions, and then I have to make a decision, if the situation warrants it. Pain has always been the greatest motivator for this alcoholic, and ego and fear, the greatest character defects for this alkie. Love in fellowship AL


Member: Jeff B
Location: Northern CA
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 9:28:44 AM

Comments

Hi, My name is Jeff and I am an alcoholic. When getting involved in AA all I have is my experience stength and hope.

Without a specific frame of reference I am not sure what Paul meant by standing up and being counted. I am an acoholic who stands up when I should maybe sit down and vise versa. I need to count on some power greater than myself for guidance. I need to attempt to share the gift that has been given to me through AA. I was a hopless drunk---- AA, God, and the 12 steps have given me hope and some experience (spiritual at times) with living without needing to drink. When I stand up and say stuff about that I don't know if it always makes sense- but I believe it counts.


Member: Curtis L
Location: Goliad, Texas
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 11:06:37 AM

Comments

I just love AA. We can definitely "chew a bone" be it big or small. Create mountains out of molehills, and pole vault over rat turds. But we all have a chance to talk and be recognized. We are all "children of God" and thus equally importand. Our code "Love and tolerance of others" gets set aside from time to time, but then we remember Tradition one. "...personal recovery depends on AA unity". During my 16 active years in this wonderful program, I've had the opportunity to observe us in action. I sometimes think that some of us would rather argue more than we liked to drink before coming to AA. Want to see fireworks? Ask whether a meeting should be smoking or non smoking.~~~~~Our 12 steps are meant to be suggestions only. Our 12 traditions are 'guides' on how a group can function peacefully. Sure, each group is autonomous and can have "RULES", but rules are dangerous to alkies. Everyone with a desire to stop drinking is supposed to be welcome at a meeting as I understand it. My 12 by 12 didn't say anything about gender, or wearing a tie, or even being sober to attend a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. Just a desire (they ever took out the word honest) to stop drinking. When I walked in the door on May 4, 1985, I was counted. I was loved when I couldn't love. I also was confronted on my bs. My sponsor of over 16 years still tells me the way he sees it.~~~~~~~It seems that meetings with lots of rules do not last too long. Alcoholism doesn't have any rules about who it will strike. No exceptions, equal opportunity to get sick and die. Maybe that's why AA considers only a persons desire to stop drinking as qualification for membership. Thank all of you for posting and helping me along my journey of recovery. With love and hugs in the fellowship I remain an alcoholic named Curtis. tiger@selectrec.net


Member: Kim E
Location: KC
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 11:30:21 AM

Comments

Hi everyone. I think I hear Paul asking about anonymity. Yes, Paul, it is very important that we remain anonymous. As you know, many celebrities don't mind going public, but I think that is walking on dangerous ground. When we get our first flicker of hope from AA, it's perfectly normal to want to shout from the rooftops that AA has saved our lives! My sponsor understood that, but she told me I had to learn to walk before I could run. In addition, I think it's important that we keep the things we hear in meetings in the strictest confidence. I don't share much of my life around the table (most of that stuff is reserved for my sponsor) but I've been to meetings when others do. They feel free to do that because we promise to keep what they share confidential. Also, if Joe shares with me something that I consider to be profound, by all means I should share that with others. It's best, however, that I not give Joe credit. He probably heard the suggestion from someone else, but more importantly, if we start going on and on about how brilliant Joe is, we expose Joe to a couple of potentially dangerous things: 1) Joe begins to believe he is brilliant, or 2) Joe is no longer able to share his vulnerabilites because we've placed him on a pedestal. I know, I know that in a perfect world Joe would pray to God to become, then remain, humble. I also know that Joe is human and an alkie. I'm pretty sure that the promises of anonymity and confidentiality were vital to my ability to work my fifth step with my sponsor.


Member: Rona C
Location: WA
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 12:29:32 PM

Comments

My name is Rona, and I am an alcoholic. Paul, That is standing up and being counted, and I've done so for a little over 11 years now. Does that define me. NO! Is that all that I am, NO! In fact when I first came in I thought I knew "who I was" but in fact I learned who I "really wanted to be" by taking the suggestions of a sponsor, taking the steps etc.....

See, I was "terminally unique" too. We all were. Then I grew up in AA. My Higher Power helped me to do that and I wouldn't go back to who I used to be for a second. So, if you want to stand up and be counted, just think for a moment, do you really, or do you want to take a chance on learning a new you who is truly you, not a sheep of AA but a unique whole person you have always wanted to be. Go with God.


Member: robert acker
Location: bala cynwyd,pa
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 12:48:17 PM

Comments

Paul, I think I've seen more "one day at a time" bumper stickers outside of bars than anywhere else. Bob


Member: Kati
Location: CA
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 2:53:01 PM

Comments

To John H. from Indiana:

Yes, you can stop drinking without the "steps". There is a God out there for everybody, not just ones who utilize these particualr steps. But I will say, you DO need a HP and you DO need to have SOME kind of spiritual program: the Gospel of Jesus Christ is always good! I think alot of what AA uses are those true principles, anyway! It is a great program!


Member: Amy
Location: Iwa
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 5:31:33 PM

Comments

Where does it say that men must wear suits and ties to meetings and women have to wear dresses?

Can a group have these rules, and insist that everyone who attends there "dress-up"????????

I posted earlier today on the coffe pot about my experience last night and I was trying to be some what funny, but I have given it more thought it really pisses me off now.

Can you imagine how many people who have wondered into that meeting I went to last night and could be so turned off AA because of the "fashion show" there, that they are not getting the help they need, because of the dress code!!

Think about the people who do not have those kinds of clothes and can't buy them so they don't go to AA?? What are these regular's at this meeting, trying to say??

I have been both over dressed and under dressed for each of the two meetings I have went to, either way it's embarassing

Anyway I just really think its a bunch Bull, I really didn't care a whole lot for the dress up meeting. however I don't have alot of dress up clothes, I am a tech. in a health clinic, my church doesn't have a problem with people wearing jeans, so I don't really need any dress clothes, I could buy them If I wanted too but why?? to go to AA, I don't think so!! I'll go to a different meeting or I won't go.

Isn't there some "HEAD JOE" of AA, ....that can tell these "group leaders" to stop the fashion show, cause nobody's there for that!!!

I am sorry I have went on far to long about this

I've Had a Great Sober Day AGAIN today BIG #5


Member: bob bn
Location: nc
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 5:54:06 PM

Comments

listening is the beginning of understanding


Member: Chuck_
Location: NS
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 7:03:55 PM

Comments

Chuck here, an alcoholic.

The topic, hum. Well, humility for me means surrender.

There are plenty of situations in my life that I am truly powerless over, and it seems the more time goes on, the more I realize just how powerless I really am and have been all along. I surrender my perceived past or future inequities to my HP, do the best I can, and go on, one day at a time. When I stop fighting, I have more inner peace. It is not my duty in life to fight every injustice I see, although I believe I have a duty to my sobriety to not contribute to the misery of another, either by acting or not acting. I am responsible to do the steps, which means connect with my HP, clean up my side of the street, work with another alcoholic, and share the message of experience, strength, and hope.

I really do not know what it means to stand up and be counted. I go to meetings by choice, to stay sober, and for me that means doing the steps, and as a result, I have an opportunity to experience the promises, one day at a time.

Thanks for the chance to share.

Sober blessings!!


Member: Jack P.
Location: So. Cal
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 8:18:52 PM

Comments

please show me in the big book where the 3 month rule is.


Member: Jack P.
Location: So. Cal
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 8:29:23 PM

Comments

My name is Jack, I have been sober in AA for over 22 years and I have never seen in AA aproved lit. where it says you can't share in a meeting untill you have 3 months sober. A good sponsor will tell you what and how to share in a meeting and listening and learning before you share is a good idea but show me the rule in the BB or don't continue the myth. Thanks for letting me share.


Member: Kjoe
Location: Rochester NY
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 8:44:03 PM

Comments

Hi All, Kjoe alcoholic/addict, law breaker, rule breaker here... I have over the years broken most of the rules of AA/NA. In the begining I attended meetings drunk and stoned... During my first year I got involved in a relationship... I crossed out things in the big book (still Do).. I showed up late and left early (still do sometimes) I changed the words to the lords prayer (still do)... I didn't get a sponser... I didn't pray to the gods of my misunderstanding... I didn't work the steps... I didn't follow the traditions... Somehow, despite my best efforts I got and stayed sober... So, Paul... Stand Up And Be Counted, Sit Down And Pass... Whatever Works For You!!! Make Elvis or Zeus your higher power, neither or both, whatever works for you!! March in a sober parade or march to the beat of a different drummer, if that works for you!!! Good Luck....Kjoe... the rule breaker... LOL


Member: Lessa E.
Location: Chicago
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 8:55:04 PM

Comments

Wow...having a topic meeting at AA is often like a game of 'telephone'. Only the person who started it knows exactly what was meant and then, nobody knows what's gonna end up coming out of it.

Everybody's thoughts have been very interesting......if one doesn't let the newcomer speak until he/she has some time in, how do the rest of us get to remember just how confused/alone/hopeless we felt when we started out? How do we know where the person is coming from and how best to help?

Anonymity.....hmmmmmm.....I wouldn't stand up and shout out the fact I'm an alcoholic to the world. However, if I'm reading the grapevine the 12&12 or the Big Book in a public place, I surely acknowledge someone's question as to whether I'm a "friend of Bill W's". And if someone who knows I am an alcoholic asks me to reach out and extend a helping hand to someone still suffering, I don't stop to think about giving out my name (first name and last initial, thank you) or phone number (even though caller ID would surely pick up the correct name!).

And Amy, congratulations on 5 days sober!!! But one thing I learned early on....people in AA don't give a rodent's posterior what you're wearing (as long as you have clothes on.) One of the things I had to overcome early on was the self-centeredness...the feeling that everybody was looking at me to make sure I had on the 'right' clothes. Everybody hung on every word I said to see if I said the 'wrong' thing. There's nothing right or wrong with what you say or what you wear. Just speak and dress from the heart. You're the one that's noticing it the most.....

Everybody take care. And thanks so much for the comments....I'll surely keep coming back....


Member: robert d
Location: perth ,australia
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 10:03:25 PM

Comments

dear group, today i am attending my first aa meeting. iam apprehensive, frightened even of what may come from this experience, but the urge to get sober is now very powerful. i have done bad things to my family and friends. i feel isolated and vunerable, feel tearful; it is very hard even to maintain composure as i write this. i know i will destroy myself or others if i dont stop drinking. reading your comments and thoughts gives me hope. wish me luck.


Member: Norm P
Location: Indiana
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 10:38:31 PM

Comments

We don't actually have any rules in AA and we don't have any bosses. Each group has its own procedures(we don't like rules). Usually,it's to address some problem the group has had in the past. And,yes,there are some who would act "in the best interests of AA",very intimidating people but they don't have all the answers. That's what our Steps and Traditions are for-to point all of us in the direction of what has and hasn't worked in the past. Our collective experience over the years is far superior to the opinion of any one person and that includes you and me. Are we right and everyone else is wrong? And,one more thing,the chairperson of the meeting has not only the right but the responsibility to keep the meeting on topic. If someone is rambling off topic too long,the chairperson is supposed to point this out and ask the person(even if it's me)to confine my remarks to the topic and get to the point. Here are two things I've learned in AA: (1)AA got along fine without me before I was here and will continue to do so after I'm gone. (2)I am not as important as I once thought I was.


Member: Rhonda K.
Location: dERRY, n.h.
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 10:46:13 PM

Comments

Hi I'm Rhonda and I'm an alcoholic. Good postings as always. Not sure if this fits in but I find it helpful to put principles before personalities. I do find whining hard to take but I guess I've done my share and could be doing right now! Thanks for being here.


Member: John T
Location: Vermont
Date: 8/21/01
Time: 10:55:48 PM

Comments

robert d

I can't imagine anything but good will come to you from attending an AA meeting. Good luck and try not to be afraid. All the best.


Member: Ron U
Location: Galesburg ILLinois
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 1:24:11 AM

Comments

Hi, I'm Ron, and I'm an alcoholic.

It's been half a day since Paul started this discussion. So whoever is still up reading, I thank you for being here. I've been sober a little over a year now, and I think sobriety came easier this time than it did the first time I tried 14 years ago. I was told by a couple of people in the beginning to attend a variety of dofferent meetings in different locations to find the ones I liked. I was also told this was a bad thing, but I did it anyway. Some meetings have a "leader"... some have a "boss". There's a difference. Some meetings adhere to strict understandings of the 12 by 12, and some just open with the prayer and let the chips fall where they may. Some meetings I prefer, if I have the time, but a meeting is a meeting if the need outweighs any selfish desires. The point is, at some meetings, I do get to speak my piece (or stand and be counted, if I'm understanding you correctly), and some, I get to listen to somebody else do the same thing because they say they can.

Try a different meeting! I go to meetings in 5 seperate towns, all within an hour of home. There's one place I went to last year, and decided I'd never go there again... but after several months, it was the closest meeting at the time I needed one. That meeting turned out to be great!

Bottom line: If I'm going to inventory a group, I'm only whizzing on my own inventory taking ability. Staying sober is tough enough without trying to be judge and jury within the program.

Some traditions suck, but damn it, they work!

Here's to another 24.

Thanks


Member: JoeE
Location: Ohio, USA
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 9:33:32 AM

Comments

Hi all, I'm Joe and I'm an alcoholic. Thank God for AA as well as the newcomer. Where would Bill W. and Dr. Bob have been without them. In their stories, they told of allowing the prospect the opportunity to speak and ask questions. Love, tolerance, and understanding are part of our recovery... but for the Grace of God, there go I.


Member: Sarah
Location: NW USA
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 9:42:24 AM

Comments

What rule that you can"t stand up and be counted? I know of this little man, who comes to an AA meeting in a suit and when called upon to speak he stands up to share his experience, strength and hope. This is what he shares ... I am an alcoholic, I can not read but I stay in recovery, I work the steps and traditions, because I can not read I go to step meetings and learn the steps and traditions by listening to other read and share, then he shares what the steps and traditions are (He has it all in his memory). Also, He tells of big book meetings. His standing up and sharing is very important for newcomers worried about reading, for old timers who can't read without their glasses, for all members who have any "problem" that could prevent their membership in AA. His rule is he does stand up and be counted. Great experience, stregth and hope. Thanks for the topic. Keep coming back.


Member: Jim barton
Location: ore springfeild
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 10:34:15 AM

Comments

Hi I;am new to aa online and it looks like what i am looking for and i don't really know what is the question is but i let 99% of who i meet know that I'am sober and live by example as much as possible and always have my hand out for any one at any given time if i dont then i might miss the chance of being of service to god and my brothers & sisters.


Member: catherine m.
Location:
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 1:44:34 PM

Comments

My name is Catherine and I'm an alcoholic. It has been a big help reading the comments. I don't really have an opinion on the original topic. I need to do a third step. I'm feeling a little nuts. I think I said the wrong thing to my friend in AA. I got to my meeting late and left early. I'm tired. I feel like I don't belong. Oh my gosh I need to get to a meeting! Thanks for letting me back up the dump truck...Like you had a choice. Anyway, thanks.


Member: Freddy B. Good
Location: Florida Sunny South
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 2:24:28 PM

Comments

I dont understand the topic of discussion from Paul above. What do you mean by "You cannot stand up and be counted in AA". Perhaps it means I dont understand what "Stand up and be counted" Means. Do what it says in the Big book thats what I do.


Member: Brennie
Location: NC
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 4:18:47 PM

Comments

Hello all, I am Brennie, sober and grateful to AA and the God I understand loves me now that I have worked the program and continually work the steps and pray on my knees morning and night. I believe to be counted is to be counted on. When someone ask me to lead a meeting, make coffee, greet people or even clean up I say yes. That is something I can do to be counted on. Just showing up and sharing positive solutions that if you just don't drink, and pray, you will be an example of how AA works. Things will get better and God has a plan if we just do the next right thing. No matter what, I can share that with another alcoholic that wants this program, we all need it, and God will give us the desires of our heart if we ask only for his will and the power to carry it out. I have had so many miracles in my life and I drank for over 20 years,,.you can only imagine how many people I hurt, and I only thought of me, my pain. I have a God that forgives me and loves me and I want to share that, It works if you work it, so work it, you are worth it. God bless you all and thanks for letting me share.*{;")+++


Member: melvin
Location: portland ma.
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 5:20:15 PM

Comments

rabb you are in denial you are adrunk,and a drunken driver you should get a bus pass


Member: Gwen
Location: Ohio
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 8:41:45 PM

Comments

I've been very fustrated by the way our local AA Meetings have been overrun by folks who have been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, and who are so stoned on antidepressants that they barely know what day it is-yet, they come to AA, and claim to be sober. If you ask me, bi-polar disorder is a mental illness, not a spiritual one, so why aren't these people in the mental ward? I mean, honestly, how in the world can someone taking antidepressants expect to get anything out of an AA Meeting? Anyway, when I come to an AA Meeting, I come to talk about alcoholism, not mental illness. Does anyone else out there feel the same way I do?


Member: Michael B.
Location: AZ
Date: 8/22/01
Time: 10:45:33 PM

Comments

Hi! My name is Michael, and I am a recovering alcoholic and addict, sober today only by the Grace of God and the Fellowship. Welcome to the newcomers! Thanks for the sincere shares!

I really liked what Rona had to say, but I have to agree with several other AA's who have commented that Paul's topic is much too vague and leaves room only for speculation on our part. Can you clarify what you mean by "stand up and be counted," Paul?


Member: pg
Location: Empangeni
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 12:30:33 AM

Comments

Hi My name is Ganny, I bring you a warm loving hug and greetings from Empangeni in Kwa-Zulu Natal in the continent of Africa. Thanks to all of you who have contributed I enjoy constructive discussion and the topic of standing up and being counted is interesting because it is my opinion that not enough of it is going around in our groups of AA. To be counted upon is relevant in service, to volunteer, to be active, to participate and get involved. Also we often hear the words "when someone out there cries out for help then the hands of AA must be there, for that I am responsible" that is to be counted upon, that is to stand up and do what is necessary for us to continue this fellowship.


Member: dale c
Location: michigan
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 1:03:23 AM

Comments

hi my name is dale and i'm an alcoholic I think that the older members think of age rather than who is a newcomer we might not like what someone says but we shouldn't keep them from speaking were here to help ourselves and others let them talk so we can listen and help


Member: duh
Location:
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 2:09:46 AM

Comments

i think that (IN A HURRY) needs to have the BALLS to confront me on the CP


Member: Jack B
Location: Palo Alto, Pa
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 2:21:51 AM

Comments

Hi I am Jack, a real alcoholic.As far as being counted, the only thing that counts in A A is today. If you have not had a drink today, you are in good standing as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. As far as rules, there are no rules in A A just some mighty good suggestions. Thanks for allowing me to share and God Bless.


Member: Todd F
Location: seattle
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 3:29:22 AM

Comments

hello i'm an alcoholic and I don't know if I understand the topic but I know for me that when it was time to get sober seriously, surrender, I chose to follow direction. I tried on many occasions to do it my way and that way led me back to drinking. This time I'm choosing to follow directions and I'm letting go and let God. thanks


Member: Shannon
Location: nebraska
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 3:35:38 AM

Comments

Hi everyone, Thanks Paul for the topic. I am so glad this is available, a meeting is just what I needed. Prohibit and rules. These words jump out at me. I have been shown AA is based on suggestions and sharing. Principles which were wrote out because they worked, when nothing else did. When I first got sober, everything in AA appeared to be ridiculous, the way people talked, how they were grateful for being a recovering alcoholic and how they all seemed so righteous. Now, I am a grateful recovering alcoholic and others don't seem to be so righteous, they are just speaking from their experiences, like I try to do, now. The principles of AA are simple, the program is simple. Many times I make it way harder and begin the same thinking by thinking that I am prohibited to do or say something so I can be counted, and then I remeber I was counted. In the bar, with all my drunken fellows and I wasn't prohibited from being counted it was acceptable for me to make an ass out of my self and I am sure I was counted endless times for counting myself the most important person in the world, because I of course, was right or my opinion had to be heard, because I knew best. yeah, yeah, I knew. Today, I want to be counted because I live by the principles I learned in AA, and the main one for me, is to be honest. A lot, A lot, A lot of times I am humbled because I need to be honest about what is going on inside my sick mind. Without humility, I am cruising on the road to self-will and with the destination of a drink. So, I tell on myself to my sponsor, to my groups, to my family and friends. I can only prohibit my self from not counting. Soberity is what counts for me. Thanks for letting me share and ramble.


Member: Lessa E
Location: Chicago
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 9:21:10 AM

Comments

Hi, Lessa here, still an alcoholic. Regarding the question on folks with a bipolar disorder.... I've heard countless arguments whether we should "allow" folks with drug dependency or mental illness into the meetings. Well, I go back to the Big Book, "the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking". I say we pray for those with the bipolar disorder. It's a terrible illness that can often be masked by alcoholism. It's tough to diagnose and very tough to treat.

Pray for the alcoholic that suffers from this disease as well. And thank your own HP that you don't have the disease, along with your alcoholism.


Member: Rick W
Location: Winnipeg Canada
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 11:15:07 AM

Comments

Hello my name is Rick and i am an alcoholic. This is my first visit to this site, what a great forum. One Day at at time everyone!!!

have a great day


Member: love my anti-depresents
Location: no high here
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 11:56:33 AM

Comments

gwen get a life your an asshole,you have the mental problem think about it you stupid bitch.


Member: Just the beginning
Location:
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 12:18:56 PM

Comments

Stand up and be counted?

The law firm of Waters & Kraus takes this opportunity to announce the filing in Texas of a class action lawsuit entitled Hernandez, Plaintiff, Individually and on Behalf of all Others Similarly Situated v. Ciba Geigy Corporation, U.S.A., Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corporation, Children and Adults With Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD), and the American Psychiatric Association.

While this filing is a departure from Waters & Kraus' continuing practice of toxic exposure and cancer cases, the pattern and practice of improper conduct on the part of the defendants in this case rivals that of the asbestos corporate defendants and tobacco companies in other cases.

The suit states allegations based on fraud and conspiracy. From approximately 1955 through 1995, the exclusive or primary manufacturer and supplier of Ritalin in this country was defendant Ciba-Geigy Corp., U.S.A. ("Ciba"). In 1996 Ciba merged with Sandoz Pharmaceuticals Corp. to become defendant Novartis Pharmaceuticals Corp. ("Novartis"). Ciba/Novartis has manufactured, marketed and sold Ritalin since approximately 1955.

Ciba/Novartis planned, conspired, and colluded to create, develop and promote the diagnosis of Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) in a highly successful effort to increase the market for its product Ritalin. In addition to its actions and involvement with the creation of the ADD and ADHD diagnosis, Ciba/Novartis took steps to promote and dramatically increase the sales of Ritalin by way of the following:

1.Actively promoting and supporting the concept that a significant percentage of children suffer from a "disease" which required narcotic treatment/therapy; 2.Actively promoting Ritalin as the "drug of choice" to treat children diagnosed with ADD and ADHD: 3.Actively supporting groups such as Defendant CHADD, both financially and with other means, so that such organizations would promote and support (as a supposed neutral party) the ever-increasing implementation of ADD/ADHD diagnoses as well as directly increasing Ritalin sales; 4.Distributing misleading sales and promotional literature to parents, schools and other interested persons in a successful effort to further increase the number of diagnoses and the number of persons prescribed Ritalin.

Defendant CHADD (Children and Adults with Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder) has been a recipient of financial donations and contributions from Defendants Ciba/Novartis for many years. CHADD received $748,000 from Ciba/Novartis in the period 1991 to 1994 alone. During the periods when CHADD received funding from Ciba/Novartis, CHADD deliberately made efforts to increase the sales of Ritalin, and to increase the supply of methylphenidate (the generic name for Ritalin) available in the United States, and to reduce or eliminate laws and restrictions concerning the use of Ritalin and methylphenidate in the United States, all to the financial benefit of Ciba/Novartis. Ciba/Novartis made such financial contributions with the purpose of advertising and promoting sales of Ritalin - an internationally controlled substance. Ciba/Novartis has thus repeatedly violated Article 10 of the United Nations Convention on Psychotropic Substances, 1019 U.N.T.S. 175 (1971).

CHADD's activities nationwide have led to significant increase in the amount of Ritalin taken by school children and have directly resulted in enormous profits to Ciba/Novartis.

Parents, the school districts and other interested parties are generally unaware that use of Ritalin can cause a significant number of health problems and risks, including but not limited to the following:

Cardiovascular

1.Rapid heart beat (palpitations, tachycardia) 2.High blood pressure (hypertension) 3.Unusual heart rhythm (arrythmia) 4.Heart attack (cardiac arrest)

Central Nervous System

5.Altered mental status (psychosis) 6.Hallucinations 7.Depression or excitement 8.Convulsions / seizures (excessive brain stimulation) 9.Drowsiness or "dopey" feeling 10.Confusion 11.Lack of sleep (insomnia) 12.Agitation, irritation, anxiety, nervousness 13.Hostility 14.Unhappiness (Dysphoria) 15.Impaired mental abilities (cognitive impairment on tests) 16.Jerky movements (Dyskinesias, tics, Tourette's syndrome) 17.Nervous habits (such as picking at skin or pulling hair) 18.Compulsive behavior 19.Depression/over-sensitivity 20.Decreased social interest 21.Zombie-like behavior

Gastrointestinal

22.Eating disorders (anorexia) 23.Nausea 24.Vomiting 25.Stomach ache / cramps 26.Dry mouth 27.Constipation 28.Abnormal liver function tests Endocrine/Metabolic

29.Growth problems (pituitary dysfunction) 30.Weight loss

Other

31.Blurred vision 32.Headache 33.Dizziness 34.Rash/conjunctivitis/hives 35.Hair loss 36.Inflammation of the skin (dermatitis) 37.Blood disorders (anorexia, leukoplacia) 38.Involuntary discharge of urine (enuresis) 39.Fever 40.Joint pain 41.Unusual sweating

Withdrawal and Rebound

42.Sleep problems (insomnia) 43.Evening crash 44.Depression 45.Over-activity and irritability 46.Worsening of ADHD-like symptoms

In addition, it is not generally known or understood by the public that use of Ritalin will preclude a child from ever joining the United States military because Ritalin is classified as a Class II controlled substance, along with morphine and other amphetamines.


Member: Von
Location: Ohio
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 12:48:27 PM

Comments

"When you get involved with AA is it so important to stick to rules that prohibit you to stand up and be counted?"

I'm not sure what the topic is or what the actual situation is, so I guess my answer is "it depends". When I was a newcomer, it was all about me and I remember being so so sensitive that it seemed that everything that anyone said or did at a meeting I took personally, whether it had anything to do with me or not. Now, a couple years later I've come to a place where I can "take what I need and leave the rest" and I find that every single meeting or AA interaction helps me in some way.

Working the program has taught me that very rarely is it about me. I'm less sensitive so the "me" focus is not the top thing on my mind anymore. I'm more comfortable in my skin and more accepting of who I am and where I'm at and more accepting of who others are and where they're at.

Today, instead of always thinking about what I can get out of meetings, I try to think about what I can bring and I feel that I always get what I need especially if I've come to a place where my relationship with my Higher Power and myself is the most important, not what others do or say.

Regarding rules, I always apply the "principles before personalities" and the "personal recovery depends upon AA unity" traditions and then the answer isn't really that hard to understand...maybe hard to swallow but that's my ego getting into the way.

I always remind myself that recovery is a private journey and a public walk. Instead of pointing out what others need to do, it's healthier for me to look within and be willing to be honest enough to point out what I need to be doing.

Today, I stand on my own and I count myself.


Member: Von
Location: Ohio
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 1:05:09 PM

Comments

"When you get involved with AA is it so important to stick to rules that prohibit you to stand up and be counted?"

I'm not sure what the topic is or what the actual situation is, so I guess my answer is "it depends". When I was a newcomer, it was all about me and I remember being so so sensitive that it seemed that everything that anyone said or did at a meeting I took personally, whether it had anything to do with me or not. Now, a couple years later I've come to a place where I can "take what I need and leave the rest" and I find that every single meeting or AA interaction helps me in some way.

Working the program has taught me that very rarely is it about me. I'm less sensitive so the "me" focus is not the top thing on my mind anymore. I'm more comfortable in my skin and more accepting of who I am and where I'm at and more accepting of who others are and where they're at.

Today, instead of always thinking about what I can get out of meetings, I try to think about what I can bring and I feel that I always get what I need especially if I've come to a place where my relationship with my Higher Power and myself is the most important, not what others do or say.

Regarding rules, I always apply the "principles before personalities" and the "personal recovery depends upon AA unity" traditions and then the answer isn't really that hard to understand...maybe hard to swallow but that's my ego getting into the way.

I always remind myself that recovery is a private journey and a public walk. Instead of pointing out what others need to do, it's healthier for me to look within and be willing to be honest enough to point out what I need to be doing.

Today, I stand on my own and I count myself.


Member: Gewn
Location: ohio
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 3:57:01 PM

Comments

Dear Love-my Anti-Depressanst, Thank you! Your rude, crude and obviously "out of touch with reality" brand of comments just make my point that much stronger, namely that AA'ers who take anti-depressants, are folks who just don't have what it takes to get and stay sober-they're just copping out and "taking the easier, softer" path, instead of "going to any length" to maintain their sobriety.


Member: JIM H
Location: CENTEREACH, NY
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 4:51:44 PM

Comments

At the AA meeting I attend, a guy who has been sober for @6weeks brings a 4 year old child. This upsets me. I Think it is inapropriate but he says basically that it is important to attend to stay sober. I say he has to decide that the child is to young to be exposed to AA meeting so if he can't find a babysitter then he should not come to the meeting with the child because he is not ready to be responsible for a child yet. Am I right.


Member: Steve R
Location: Delaware
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 5:06:57 PM

Comments

Hello. Steve here. Grateful alcoholic. Also diagnosed with Depression, and self-diagnosed with Bipolar disorder. I've been prescribed anti-depressants. I'm pretty sure they help.

I'm admittedly somewhat torn, however. On the one hand, I feel a bit wimpy for not being able to tough this out without medication. On the other, I tend to believe that my alcoholism was caused by defects of cognition, emotion, spirit, and body. Thus, I need to fix all four to remain free of the desire to pick up that proverbial first drink.

So, I choose today to continue my medication, and work the twelve steps; under the guidance of God, as I understand Him.

I don't know if I could have remained involved in the fellowship if its members were intolerant of my choices, not, in my opinion, directly or indirectly related to sobriety.

I am very grateful, to God and to AA, for providing the means to a new life of recovery.

God bless, Steve steve@ce.net


Member: Not Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 5:21:22 PM

Comments

Gwen--it sounds like YOU need some drugs--antipsychotic ones, forget the wimpy antidepressants--you sound like an antisocial nut--go back to the rock you crawled out from under....forget AA--they don't want to hear your bullshit either.


Member: Look!
Location: Around
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 5:29:56 PM

Comments

When you “stand up to be counted” we must first look at this emotional question: who are our enemies? Who are our friends? This is a question of the first importance for everyone. The basic reason why all previous struggles within ourselves achieved so little was their failure to unite with real friends in order to attack real enemies. A person who has succeeded in recovery is the guide of others who haven’t reached any kind of stability yet, and nobody ever succeeds when the “group conscience” is morally deficient and leads them astray. To ensure that we will definitely achieve success in our recovery and will not lead the others astray, we must pay attention to uniting with our real friends in order to attack our real enemies. To distinguish real friends from real enemies, we must make a general study of the moral status of the various members in AA society and of their respective attitudes towards successful recovery They may belly-ache with empty accusations like “you’re taking my inventory,” etc., but in order to help our friends we must take some progressive initiative! Otherwise we are being weak and selfish to others who truly want to be helped!


Member: Not Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 5:31:34 PM

Comments

Gwen--it sounds like YOU need some drugs--antipsychotic ones, forget the wimpy antidepressants--you sound like an antisocial nut--go back to the rock you crawled out from under....forget AA--they don't want to hear your bullshit either.


Member: Not Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 5:47:08 PM

Comments

Gwen--it sounds like YOU need some drugs--antipsychotic ones, forget the wimpy antidepressants--you sound like an antisocial nut--go back to the rock you crawled out from under....forget AA--they don't want to hear your bullshit either.


Member: Gwen
Location: Ohio
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 7:35:02 PM

Comments

Dear Not Gwen, My, for someone with such a bold-and limited- vocabulary-you have alot of guts for someone who won't even share their own name. And, to you comments, I have a huge following of fellow AA's who believe as I do. By the way, do you have a job, and do you contribute anything to society, or are you one of those poor souls who we tax paying AA's have to support because-boo hoo-you have can't work because a job would be too stressful to your poor delicate mental condition? It's time to grow up,who ever you are, and the fact that you use words to attack me only proves the poor quality of your mental state.If this is what taking antidepressants have done for you, I can't imagine why anyone else would. Medication for mental illness is supposed to make the quality of your life and relationships better-not turn you into someone who attacks people.


Member: Blair
Location:
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 7:45:45 PM

Comments

Hi,Blair here, alcoholic,I just drop in to make a comment on what Jim H. from Centrereach,N.Y. had to say to the guy who was 6weeks sober and he was taking his 4 year old baby to an A.A. He wanted to know if he was right in telling him to stay home with the baby and it wasn't the place to take a baby and that he isn't responsible for a baby yet,where in gods name did you come from,your so far in left field that you need a guide to get you home.I believe you don't go to to many meetings or you just don't listen to good when you are there.The meetings that I go to tell me that WE GO TO ANY LENGTH TO STAY SOBER and if that means taking your 4 year old child then take the child because your sobriety means everything to you,without that you will not have your child or you, and yes your child is your responsibled also, you brought it into this world.Jim H. do you think that 4 year old child is going to leave that meeting and tell everyone that Jim H. was at the meeting last night or he may even tell his 4 year old friends that Jim H. is an ALCOHOLIC,try getting a little humbly Jim.


Member: Gwen
Location: Ohio
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 7:46:55 PM

Comments

I must say, I began sharring my thoughts with this cite because I heard some good things about it. But, if I had known that I had to put up with verbal abuse, I never would have tried it. For those of you who offered intellegent feedback to my opinions, I thank you, I'm just sorry that you have to tollerate the rude comments of people-who claim to be clean-but I feel that people who are truly sober, don't call people "Bitches" and classify their opinions as "bullshit." Bye....


Member: Caroline
Location:
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 8:50:39 PM

Comments

On the topic of bringing children to meetings, here's a story about this from the Grapvine. Just thought it might give one perspective on the subject.

http://www.aagrapevine.org/archive/homegroup/KidsRUs.html


Member: robert d
Location: perth ,australia
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 9:07:32 PM

Comments

dear group, i know we are meant to post only once a week, but i felt i needed to share.i am an alcoholic-there, i said it, i now know it and i am on the very first path to recovery for having admitted it to myself finally. my first meeting was a revelation-an epiphany if you like. at last i found people who understood what was happening to me. i no longer felt desperate isolation because there are people just like me. aa is a wonderful concept. it is full of wonderful people. there is hope for me. i look forward to the day when i can return the help as a recovering alcoholic.

i havent yet stopped drinking, but i know that i can. let go and let GOD as they say. thanks for listening. robert


Member: Jarod N
Location: Alberta, Canada
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 9:50:03 PM

Comments

Hi everyone. I am visiting for the first time and must say that, already, I have found the discussion lively and informative. I believe that this site will prove to be a wonderful augmentation to my "live" meetings.

Thanks Caroline for the archival link on the subject of kids at meetings. I am facing something of a similar dilemma but for somewhat different reasons. Nonetheless, the article has helped me choose a path in handling this problem. Thanks again.

Keep it up everyone!


Member: Not Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/23/01
Time: 10:52:07 PM

Comments

hahaha...it seems you are the one boo-hooing now...as for using language intelligently: learn how to spell, you ignoramus. You even misspelled your name in one of your pathetic posts, "Gewn."

Maybe there is a pill to transform close-minded idiots such as yourself into decent people. Until then, I'd rather eat handfuls of pills than be in your skull for a day.

P.S. I have a job, friends, family, my own home, two new cars, and alot of thankfulness for all of it...maybe you should learn some tolerance, and you'd get some in return. I won't reveal my name because arguing with you is not worth degrading myself...and that is the ugly truth...not because give a damn what you think.


Member: Jimmy T.
Location: SoCal
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 1:58:04 AM

Comments

Hello, I'm Jimmy, alcoholic. Thanks for letting me post.

Apropos whether or not it is appropriate to bring younger children to a meeting, I feel it is in most cases quite alright. My dear friend was brought up in the program and as a result was able to feel comfortable immersing himself in meetings and the steps when his life became conspiciously unmanageable.

As for prescription medicine, it only restores balance to chemicals in the brain wheras alcohol - at least in my opinion - renders them chaotic. Besides, if I was able to use alcohol responsibly as I do anti-depressants, I wouldn't have to be here right now.


Member: Hilary E.
Location: Poconos PA
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 6:49:48 AM

Comments

Good morning, y'all! Just figured I'd throw my two cents into the mix about the topic/subtopics being discussed...

Well, first I don't really understand the topic, about being counted, since I've only attended my first meeting last night...

But as for bringing children to meetings, I wouldn't see why that is a problem--I was just discussing this with a lady I met at the meeting last night, and she brought it up actually. During the day meetings they cater to women with their children, because maybe some people are not in a financial position to hire babysitters, daycare etc. This doesn't make them bad parents...Also, there is probably nothing said in an AA meeting that a child is interested in hearing, and even if they do sit in rapt attention, it's probably, sadly, nothing new to them. Remember, that child comes from an alcoholic home, and some stuff had to being on in there, and more than likely alot of things went on in front of this child that should have never--that's why it is imperative for his/her parent to do whatever is necessary to stay sober.

As for prescription medication and Gwen's discussion--hey, I take a mild antidepressant--it's not a "happy" pill, I get no "high" off it, as a matter of fact, it makes me kind of tired sometimes, which is a bit of a drag, but the alternative to not taking it is abysmal. I think you need to lighten up Gwen, and worry about your own sobriety, God is the only one who has a right to judge. My motto is live and let live--why do you feel threatened by someone who is ill? I get a feeling you are a little jealous of the attention they receive...

I personally do not talk about my illness as a regular thing--I do it here because I feel comfortable with the anonymity, but I don't know how I'd feel sharing it in group, because in my mind I'm not even comfortable with it...but other people feel this need, as it goes hand in hand with their alcoholism.

As for the rest of the stuff you posted, that wasn't very nice. If a person is mentally disabled to a point of needing disability, their illness is as legitimate as someone with a physical illness--because not only is it emotional, it is *physiological.* You might as well insult someone in a wheelchair...they can't help themselves any more than someone with disabling mental illness. People with milder forms of these diseases can and do function quite well and normally in society with the aid of medication, therapy, and support...support like AA, family and friends. They don't need to be made to feel bad about something they can't control--*I* don't need to feel any more shame about being ill--I've felt it from myself for long enough, and have finally come to grips with the fact it's not my fault, and I didn't "do" this--who would ever choose to be in pain? I think you are referring to people who use the excuse of being "depressed" as a way of manipulation--many whom are not officially diagnosed, just want attention. There are people out their like that, but there are also hypochondriacs who drive people crazy with perceived "physical" illness, so your anger isn't really sensible...


Member: Hilary E.
Location: Poconos PA
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 6:54:24 AM

Comments

Good morning, y'all! Just figured I'd throw my two cents into the mix about the topic/subtopics being discussed...

Well, first I don't really understand the topic, about being counted, since I've only attended my first meeting last night...

But as for bringing children to meetings, I wouldn't see why that is a problem--I was just discussing this with a lady I met at the meeting last night, and she brought it up actually. During the day meetings they cater to women with their children, because maybe some people are not in a financial position to hire babysitters, daycare etc. This doesn't make them bad parents...Also, there is probably nothing said in an AA meeting that a child is interested in hearing, and even if they do sit in rapt attention, it's probably, sadly, nothing new to them. Remember, that child comes from an alcoholic home, and some stuff had to being on in there, and more than likely alot of things went on in front of this child that should have never--that's why it is imperative for his/her parent to do whatever is necessary to stay sober.

As for prescription medication and Gwen's discussion--hey, I take a mild antidepressant--it's not a "happy" pill, I get no "high" off it, as a matter of fact, it makes me kind of tired sometimes, which is a bit of a drag, but the alternative to not taking it is abysmal. I think you need to lighten up Gwen, and worry about your own sobriety, God is the only one who has a right to judge. My motto is live and let live--why do you feel threatened by someone who is ill? I get a feeling you are a little jealous of the attention they receive...

I personally do not talk about my illness as a regular thing--I do it here because I feel comfortable with the anonymity, but I don't know how I'd feel sharing it in group, because in my mind I'm not even comfortable with it...but other people feel this need, as it goes hand in hand with their alcoholism.

As for the rest of the stuff you posted, that wasn't very nice. If a person is mentally disabled to a point of needing disability, their illness is as legitimate as someone with a physical illness--because not only is it emotional, it is *physiological.* You might as well insult someone in a wheelchair...they can't help themselves any more than someone with disabling mental illness. People with milder forms of these diseases can and do function quite well and normally in society with the aid of medication, therapy, and support...support like AA, family and friends. They don't need to be made to feel bad about something they can't control--*I* don't need to feel any more shame about being ill--I've felt it from myself for long enough, and have finally come to grips with the fact it's not my fault, and I didn't "do" this--who would ever choose to be in pain? I think you are referring to people who use the excuse of being "depressed" as a way of manipulation--many whom are not officially diagnosed, just want attention. There are people out their like that, but there are also hypochondriacs who drive people crazy with perceived "physical" illness, so your anger isn't really sensible...


Member: Hilary E.
Location: Poconos PA
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 6:55:07 AM

Comments

Sorry all...I doubleclicked--sorry for the repeat posting...


Member: Joe L.
Location: Phila, PA - USA
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 7:51:53 AM

Comments

Good Morning All; Joe here, definitely alcoholic. Sorry for double-dipping.

BONNY G: I've never heard of a 3 month rule either, but in the Philadelphia area, a lot of groups require you to have 90 days to "chair" the meeting. Anyone can share, it takes 90 days to lead the meeting. That's not written in stone, either. My home group doesn't use it, but we recognize that a lot of groups in the area do.

GWEN/OHIO: I hope you're not gone. You (or anyone else)can e-mail me at LeachFtown@aol.com I was interested in your topic, but usually try to stick to the original. Upon occasion, I've tried to be first but never made it, so I salute whoever is. Once again, I apoligize. Easy Does It...


Member: KENT
Location: TEXAS
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 10:35:51 AM

Comments

This post is in response to Gwen. I take anti-dpressents, and am not stoned when I go to a meeting. It seems that you have forgot the HOW of the program. Take a special note of the open mindedness part. Everyone have a great day.


Member: Gwen
Location: Ohio
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 10:38:12 AM

Comments

Here's where I'm coming from...Yes, before I got into AA. I was heavy into therapy. For me, when I described everything I was thinking and feeling, instead of getting help for my drinking and being sent to AA, I instead got DIAGNOSED, and pumped to the gills with meds. But, when my money ran out, and I could not afford therapy,and the medications these "specialists" perscribed, I got dropped like a hot potato, and went back to drinikng. Fortunatly, I later hit a bottom and got 12 steped by a friend. And, just like I did in therapy, I told folks in AA how I was thinking and feeling, and instead of a diagnosis, they informed me of their opinions that I was an alcoholic. My point is, alcoholism is the most misdiagnosed disease ever, and instead of being sent to AA, I was handed a batch of pills that were supposed to "fix" me but never did. I also believe that bi-polar disorder, and clinical depression do exist, but I also faithfully believe that many medical professionals also misdiagnose these conditions-or "Explain-all diagnosises of the moment." Near my home, there is a treatment center for alcoholism. Well, now when someone new to the program goes there, first, they're filled up with Librium till they can barely walk. Next, they're put on antidepressants, and once assigned a councilor-someone with a two-year degree-who enlightens them with the knowlege that the depression they are feeling-which in the early stages of recovery is perfectly normal-could be the result of a bi-polar disorder. Then, without the benefit of ANY physical testing-a doctor gives them a counsultation and tells them that they feel they are bi-polar. At this point, then these poor folks finally get exposed to AA, but, by now, the bulk of them don't want to hear anything we have to say, because we "just don't understand," and we can't help them because they would rather blame all their problems on a chemical imbalance in their brains, than try the 12 steps.I guess what I'm hoping to say is, I see all these new people being exposed to recovery who are doomed before they even get their first Big Book. But, looking back, when I was a naive new comer, if someone had given me the choice of "facing life on life's terms" and temporially living on an emotional rollarcoaster,or taking a pill that would distort my feelings, instantly and make all that bad old depression go away, and leave me feeling "comfortablly numb," I very well might have gone, "the easier softer" route. And, if I seem defensive about this matter, well I am because my recovery means the world to me. And, I hate to see newcomers forfeit the chance of feeling that frist natural high, for the choice to live their lives in a medicated state of artificial bliss. You know, sometimes I wonder, how were the oldtimers ever able to get AA started without the "benefit" of anti-depressants? Well, the point is, they did, and I'm prowd to say I got sober the old fashioned way. I just wish more newcomers would have as much faith in AA as they seem to all these medical specialists who honestly hand out antidpressants like they were candy.


Member: Jerry s
Location: Badger state
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 10:58:00 AM

Comments

My name is Jerry and I am an alcoholic. I didn't get to a meeting this week so needed to say that. I am grateful for the cyber meetings. I am still trying to get used to the aggressiveness that people show to others in these meetings. If we stick to our own stories and avoid personal attacks, it might help.


Member: Jan BB
Location: Paris, France
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 11:32:13 AM

Comments

Hi everyone, Jan, alcoholic and mother of a two and half year old. (((Caroline))) thank you so much for the Grapevine article on children in meetings. I had to leave the women's meeting I went to this afternoon with my son, due to him not being able to get settled. I tried my best with crayons and paper, books, cars, a small ball, juice and cookies, nothing would work, he just wanted all my attention. I have taken our little guy to meetings ever since he was born. The meeting I attended today was started, by myself and a few other mothers, in that their were no child-friendly meetings in our city. Less and less mothers are showing up at the meeting with their small children, so my little one turns to me now, to play with, during the meeting. It is not a question of affording a babysitter, it is who will do it in the middle of the day for a couple of hours? I have no family here and pre-school lets out at noon. So, this was my option, and it does not seem to be working out. Lack of interest to attend the meeting by other mothers, is making it diffcult to continue. I am not in control, I know that, I'm just trying to stay in the solution, finding a way that works.


Member: Sarah
Location: NW USA
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 1:20:04 PM

Comments

Sorry that this is sharing number two, but I did want to share about children in meetings. My daughter(at about the age of seven) came to meetings with me. The result was ... We were in church, we all said the "Lord's Prayer" and my daughter (who had learned the "Lord's Prayer" at AA meetings of experience, strength and hope) repeated her experience, strength and hope in church ... she thought "Keep Coming Back" was part of the "Lord's Prayer". I'll Keep Coming Back, Hope you Keep Coming Back. Thanks for the healing power.


Member: Gwen
Location: Ohio
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 1:46:36 PM

Comments

For all you self-diagnosed folks out there who take anti-depressants, here's the bottom line-and the law. If you believe you have a chemical imbalance in your brain which forces you to take medication to keep your emotions in check, then what you have is legally defined as a "Mental Illness." Therefore, if you have a mental illness, everything-including your freedom to drive and your civil rights in general can be taken away from you, and you cannot be held accountable for assuming responsibility for your own well being. If you don't believe me ask a lawyer. Case in point: If both a garden variety alcoholic, and a bi-polar person both get drunk and go out driving and hit and kill an innocent person, most definitly the alcoholic will go to prison, while the bi-polar person will cop the insanity plea, do some time in an institution, and be out in society in a much lesser ammount of time. So, which is it people? You can't have it both ways?


Member: Gwen
Location: Ohio
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 2:24:25 PM

Comments

Dear Hiliary, So you take a "mild antidepressant" do you, gee, is that the same thing as a "mild drink?" Please, turn down the volumn on your justifier before it's too late.

Dear Kent, You advise me too be more openminded but what you really asking me to do is overlook and justify your decision to take antidepressants-which-HELLO-ARE DRUGS-Yes, even if you got them from a doctor. No, way. If you decide to take a drink, would you expect me to be openminded about that too?

Dear Joe, thank you for your kind words.

Finally, SOS. iF THERE IS ANYONE OUT THERE WITH A FEW YEARS OF SOBRIETY UNDER THEIR BELTS, WHO DOES NOT TAKE ANTIDEPRESSANTS, I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU.


Member: Hilary E
Location: Poconos PA
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 2:26:54 PM

Comments

Gwen:

I am sorry you are so offended by the laws of this country...but this is getting tiresome, as you do not feel inclined to feel any compassion for anyone, just to judge, and want to rule rule rule over an imaginary and unjust kingdom you feel victimized by.

I am *diagnosed* manic depressive, bipolar, for over *15* years now, and am *also* an alcoholic. I have had a driver's license since I am *17*, and medical history is easily accessible, especially in this cyber age. I don't know what United States of America you dwell in, but in the one I reside, *no one* regardless of age, color or handicap can be stripped of their civil rights.

As for a person with bipolar syndrome hitting a person with a car, if a diabetic patient hits a person with a car, or the bipolar/manic depressive on antidepressants hits the person with the car, it makes no difference--it will be ruled an accident either way--now if either the bipolar or the diabetic blow a .25 on a breathylyzer, it doesn't matter how "insane" you are, you are still going to jail...trust me, there are "psychiatric" wings in the prisons, my ex-husband spent time in one in Riker's Island, NYC. Another thing--I never have to disclose that I take Zoloft, because it doesn't affect my sensory reflexes, so if I get pulled over and the officer asks me, have I been drinking, or using mind altering substances, I don't have to disclose I use the *medication* because it is not a psychotrophic substance, it is a medicine. If I test positive for alcohol, I am going to jail, if I test positive for cocaine or marijuana, I am going to jail. If I test positive for Zoloft, or Lithium, or Procardia, or Penecillin, I am not going to jail... BTW, do you know how difficult it is to be ruled criminally insane? That plea has been done to death, and juries don't buy it anymore unless there is absolute and irrefutable history, and a substantial amount of evidence to back it up.

There are different degrees of all different bodily illness, that is why cancer is staged, heart disease is staged, and depression is staged, etc. There is no one size fits all--as you seem to have everything so neatly cut and dry and defined in your opinion. I think you need to stop worrying so much about everyone else, and censoring everyone according to categories, as I mentioned in an earlier post, and start looking at yourself--it may be time for you to start therapy again, which could be the root reason for all of your resentments against your fellow sufferers. Peace and no hard feelings....


Member: Ray P.
Location: DENCO
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 2:32:18 PM

Comments

Hi Everybody,I!m an alcoholic and my problem is Ray..In reading the BB and then working thru the steps while staying close to AA meetings I have gotten answers to almost any question that comes up. On Pg 83 BB, "We should be sensible,tactful,considerate,and humble without being servile or scraping. As Gods people we stand on our feet; we don't crawl before anyone. Of course this is alluding to doing 9th step work and leading us to step 10....it takes time and we must quit fighting........thx and GOD Bless all of us....


Member: Me Again
Location: Look Outside
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 3:00:08 PM

Comments

burn in Hell, BITCH!!!!!!!


Member:  
Location:
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 3:33:38 PM

Comments

It's hard not to get involved in outside issues, especially when they hit close to home and others are passionate about their involvement when communicating. However, principles before personalities, I choose not to discuss the outside topic, and prefer to offer some experience, strength, and hopefully hope.

There are meetings where people have established a group conscience about child care, and from that chose to pool their time, alternating as a sitter in a room designated for child care. Some meetings even pass a hat for child care donations to cover the small cost of a baby sitter for an hour. Sobriety is very important to me and meetings come first. There is always a way to work things out with a bit of faith.

Best wishes to all who are dealing with tough issues of their own.


Member: Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 3:53:38 PM

Comments

How could have me been so wrong. Went to happy doctor. told him me feel sad. Him give me little pills. Me take-Now life beautiful. Everything in slow motion. Me so sleepy. Me quit job, go on SS. GET FOOD STAMPS. This good life. BYE, BYE


Member: Mary L.
Location: San Diego
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 4:56:50 PM

Comments

Hi - I didn't realize how much I consider this to be one of "my" groups until I checked back in here and saw what's been going on, last few days, and felt upset by it. It's humbling, to say the least. Mine was the second share (after the topic was presented by Joe) and my attempt to clarify or put the topic more on track didn't help very much... LOL. I am really saddened by all of the fighting going on on the site this week, and want to tell positive, new voices like Jarod N. and Robert P. that in my experience, it usually isn't like this! Maybe the heat is getting to everyone.

I guess it just shows what a miracle AA and the recovery we get to experience is, because there's a lot of illness and controversy that could trip us up, as evidenced by this week's meeting here. My personal take on the anti-depressant issue is: I made the switch from East Coast meetings to San Diego ones in 1990. Out here I did find a lot of what Gwen described - people who were being turned out of rehabs & treatment centers with anti-depressants and SSI. I hadn't seen anything like it in NYC program, so maybe it's a somewhat regional phenomenon? Anyway, those factors, combined with the differences in lifestyle, politics, and education between myself and a lof of these folks ended up having an influence on my drinking again. I couldn't understand why if they could take anti-depressants for depression, I couldn't, if I was depressed, smoke a joint, because, after all, wasn't I sometimes depressed, too? (I didn't care, by the way, whether their medications were prescribed as I thought the medical/mental health establishment pretty corrupt.) So it was an "easy shot" for my disease - a way for it to creep in and help me start seeing the differences, rather than similarities, between myself and other recovering people.

Well, of course smoking a joint didn't just stop at smoking a joint, and I needed to go through some more stuff to get the surrender and willingness I didn't yet have. I was spending too much time "looking at other people's outsides instead of looking at my own insides." Now I have a sponsor who is bipolar and who has been sober for 27 years. Her style and background have many differences with mine. But she has gotten through the unjust deaths of her two children and let go of a food addiction and stayed sober. Now, I don't understand the term "bipolar" (to me it sometimes also seems like a new justification for a lucrative medications/psychiatric establishment). But I do know that I respect the heck out of my sponsor and that she's one of the strongest people I know. If her higher power led her to a path that includes medication for bipolar, who am I to question that?

And to tell the truth, I prefer meetings without kids. I was brought up to be polite and be mindful of what I say around children, so I'm apt to be somewhat self-conscious when they're present. They can be loud and disruptive and rude. BUT I definitely wouldn't want their parents to miss meetings because they couldn't bring their children. And I agree with those who've reiterated that this program is about love and tolerance. It teaches us to live with things as they are (parents who need to bring kids to meetings, a system that is prescribing anti-depressants for many, whatever) and to look at our own side of the street. God help me to keep doing so. Compassion feels much better than anger.

When I got "on" the site to read the last few days' shares I was upset over some things happening in my life right now. I was taken outside my own worries by being here and taking part in the meeting. I care about and love AA, and care about those who are really trying to stay sober, or who are in the beginnings of that. The love in AA, the relationship with God, and the miracles I see happening in the lives of others and myself are the glue that keep me connected.

Thanks - & may next week be a better week here! I'm so glad I'm sober.

Mary L./San Diego


Member: Not Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 5:12:17 PM

Comments

is gwen the infamous jimmy? i think its cover is blown


Member: May K
Location: Canada
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 6:09:55 PM

Comments

lol Gwen the infamous jimmy...I don't, could be. I kinda know what Gwen is talking about. With myself I saw there was a problem, I knew I had a problem with drinking for a long time off and on...the problem seem to not be a problem when I wanted to drink.I wasn't always recked to the point of no returned, I had more responsibilities to take care of, I couldn't get drunk on my weekends, instead I started drinking through out my week days when I needed it. I realized what was happening I thought sh*t somethings wrong, I saw it myself, I scared myself, for once it didn't take someone telling me over and over that I had a problem...hmmmm drinking to do normal daily things, also things that I loved and use to enjoy with out drinking, I needed to drink just to do them. I tried to quit like many times before and thought sence I noticed and won't do it, my problem would be solved. It wasn't and I thought I'll go to the doctor, I told him everything and how I realized I was lightly drinking to take off the edge. He agreed that I was under alot of stress and gave me pills, felt like I never felt before, I could concentrait, I could deal with every day things and more, I knew what I've been through and what I was going through and I was fine with everything...I had no emotions, I was masking up everything. When I went off them I drank, when I was on them I would go off them to drink...no I was responsible I would mix them, I didn't need them I was fine. I started to mix everythiing and anything, I would drink and realized that it was what was causing the anxiety, shaking and feeling like eveyone is watching but I fixed that by poping sedatives after, I was addicted to them for 3 years of and on I took them when I needed them. I would have to take them for weeks after a binge, I took them before drinking thinking I would drink less and not look like a pig. I didn't drink for seven months, that was the longest time, I ever had. I thought I was doing so well for myself, but all I did was change my drug, I thought that it was ok because it came form a doctor and I could act normal and didn't smell like I've been drinking. There are things out there the the doctor can give that aren't addictive, and won't hurt you...and going to meetings make you realize and remember don't pick up the first drink, even if you feel fine. For me I'm not taking anthing right now and sometimes I think I should go back to a doctor but I can't I have to find out my fears, why I have them, and find a way to deal with them. Take Care, do what is right for you, and you can have differnt opions about things it's ok. May


Member: wp
Location: europe
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 7:07:33 PM

Comments

Glad to read all the posts. For myself I cant seem to understand anything at the moment being only a week without drinking never mind the topic. But reading all the sober answers or attempts at answering gave me some hope that if I get sober at least I have a chance to try and figure things out. Right now I feel as if everybody can walk all over me and I have no right to answer back as I have been the so called Bad Boy because I drank and did a few things I would rather forget. Hope someday I can stand up and be counted for something


Member: Jarod N
Location: Alberta, Canada
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 8:14:11 PM

Comments

Greetings all. My name is Jarod and I am most definately an alcoholic. This is only my second time posting although I have been avidly reading for some time now.

I have to say that I agree with Hilary E et al: Gwen...enough already! Your petty hair splitting and gross intolerance HAVE become tiresome. A little over two years ago I myself landed in a psych ward after a suicide attempt during a mega alcoholic depression. Mercifully for me, not only did I have the services of a very good staff but the institution supported AA meetings on an on-going basis. My psychiatrist prescribed anti depressants, which I now no longer use and actively encouraged my attendance at meetings. It is no coincidence that the first day pass which he signed for me was to attend an "off-site" AA group that I still attend on a regular basis.

Would I have been able to achieve the positive results now manifested without non-AA, medical help? Of course that is a question which can never be answered but I now believe that I was placed upon the right path by caring people, both professional and non, whose only interest was my recovery and welfare.

Was I mentally sick or just plain addicted? To many people there is no difference. In the tone of Gwen's postings I detect an overwhelming thread of obsession/compulsion. Mental illness or addiction? Interesting point, I think. One thing I do wish to convey: let's not support - or encourage - any more intolerance than is already out there!

In regard to the legal picture: several places around North America have endured "test cases" claiming the so-called "Drunk Defence". While I do not possess too much empirical data, I am aware that this approach has enjoyed mixed results at best. As Hilary says: you blow over, you're toast!

A moral to all this? We've all got problems or we would not be here. Does Gwen (or Jimmy or whoever!) stand up to have these opinions heard in group meetings? I hope so. I would hate to think that this wonderful forum is being used to blindside those of us who are trying to work our own personal programs.

Thanks for letting me share and remember: tolerance is one of the fundamental principals of this program.

Yours in sobriety, J.N.

P.S. to wp: Hang in there---it works!


Member: Miranda C.
Location: Vermont
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 8:52:37 PM

Comments

Hi all, my name is Miranda and I'm an alcoholic.I've been going to meetings for about two weeks and have been sober for 10 days now, for which I'm grateful. I read about this site in the Grapevine. I am a single parent and it is sometimes difficult to get to meetings. Sometimes I bring my 10 year old son and he reads in another room while he waits for me. However most of the meetings around here seem to take place at night, often too late for him to be up.

I thought perhaps visiting this site and reading the postings would help when I could not get to a meeting. Some of the posts have helped or enlightened me. However I find the general nastiness and anger exhibited in many of the posts to be very upsetting. I thought a lot of what AA was about was tolerance and accepting other people with all their faults, this site seems to be just the opposite. It is too bad.


Member: Elizabeth
Location: Ireland
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 9:38:34 PM

Comments

Elizabeth/alcoholic reading some of the previous posts has left me wondering. Whatever happened to experience , strength & hope. The only requirement for AA membership is the desire to stop drinking. I wonder what qualification these so calle AA doctors have. Whatever happened to non judgemental compassion. Whatever happened to gratitude.I hope all of you newcomers keep coming back.I have heard AA referred to as a giant hospital/ definately true.


Member: myrtle
Location: nc
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 9:50:06 PM

Comments

The Spirit of anonymity is realized when I recognize that I am you and you are me. That's when love is born for my fellow man.The steps of AA promised and produced in me a spiritual awakening and emotional balance. Only when the eleventh step is applied can we love others as (and) self. When our traditions are ignored there is nothing left but chaos. There is something called a common bond that draws us closer together, if we keep our sharing on OUR experience, strength and hope. It's not my business what anyone else is taking unless I sponsor them.. One thing I know is that "hurt people hurt people". THE PRIMARY PURPOSE OF EVERY GROUP IS TO REACH OUT A LOVING HAND TO THE NEWCOMER. Freely have you been given and freely are you to give. Have you forgotten, or are you a newcomer???If you are a newcomer, that's different. I went to a group many years ago where members implemented rules: no children, no profanity, etc. I left that group and didn't stand up for the traditions and lived to regret it. Those same people later attempted to stop ME from using profanity (in a very trying time of my life) and tried to drive me out of AA. This time I HAD to stand my ground or die. The premise is: if you make a rule, who has the power to enforce it? And what is the punishment? Would anyone serve a death sentence to another alcoholic??? Arguing and bickering show lack of maturity. This has been a trip, watching people degrade the AA program that I love so dearly. Don't you think it's time to clean it up? When wrong, promptly admit it? Or better yet, WHAT WOULD THE MASTER DO? BE HAPPY, JOYOUS AND FREE. It beats misery by a long shot!!


Member: shimmy jimmy
Location: couch potatoeing
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 10:15:30 PM

Comments

gwen,gewn or goon is not i repeat,IS NOT me..

the infamous shimmy jimmy ect.[TEE-HE HE]

BUT I WOULD like to bend her over and boink

her where there sun dont shine...he he he

gwen....BLOW ME


Member: Brenda K.
Location: CT
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 11:05:43 PM

Comments

Hi- I haven't been to this site since June, when I was only 2 wks into soberity. I am now going on 3 months Sept. 3rd and haven't gone to an AA meeting. I thought because I had stopped drinking, starting taking better care of myself and staying positive that all my problems were solved. I am now finding that I am this resentful, angry person who doesn't have alcohol to wallow in anymore, so I am forced to deal with myself and others are too. I am not very happy right now. I am wondering if its time to attend a meeting and what can I expect? I am not one to speak up so it sounds like that's ok. I thought w/o the booze I'd be different somehow but I am worse, at least in my head.

Thanks for listening


Member: Lessa E
Location: Chicago
Date: 8/24/01
Time: 11:45:40 PM

Comments

Hi, Lessa here, grateful recovering alcoholic.

Brenda K, Congratulations on three months of not using. Please do yourself a favor, give AA a try. It's a "WE" program - you don't have to do it on your own. I'm not talking about the drinking....you've done well if you've managed to stay dry for 3 months without help.

I used to think that once I stopped drinking, all my difficulties would disappear. Not so - once I stopped using, I was left to face the fact I didn't know how to live life on life's terms. And it wasn't much fun. I'd been drinking since my teens and was left, as a person in her 30's, with the coping skills of a teen. I was unhappy, resentful and, without my nightly anesthesia, it was pretty tough to take. Especially alone.

Please give the meetings a try. You'll find others like you...we've all felt the same way. And, the meetings honestly help. Give 'em a try.

Again congratulations.....

Lessa, here, 'e-standing up and being counted'.


Member: lionel.c
Location: leumeah australia
Date: 8/25/01
Time: 1:30:47 AM

Comments

hi my names lionel a real alcoholic. as far as i know there are supposed to be no rules in a.a so i've been told not to break any.ha ha { love and need you all lionel.c }


Member: "Graced"
Location: St. Louis
Date: 8/25/01
Time: 2:22:24 AM

Comments

Wow! I'm sitting here in total amazement at any number of things. I'm here, sober, doing AA on the Internet with AA's from Australia and Africa and everywhere else! I'm also amazed at the posts this week. I'm a relative newcomer to this site and this is the first time I've felt worse after reading them than before! I expect this forum to be NO different than any other AA meeting, but people--pulllease! Spread our solution, not our dis-ease!

I have a rude awakening for some of you--alcoholism IS classified as a mental illness, look it up. Educate yourself for your own benefit/survival, not to pass your opinion or judgements on somebody else. Love and tolerence is our code . . . It will save your butt, too.

Robert in Australia and PG in Africa-- stay with us and stick with the winners (the ones who live in the solution) Everyone-- thanks for saving my life and making it worth living again! Sheesh! I think I need a meeting!


Member: Ardis
Location: So Cal, Mtns
Date: 8/25/01
Time: 8:54:50 AM

Comments

On Paul's subject, with Corinne's interpretation, humility to me is to stay teachable, no matter how long or short one is sober.

I have never heard about rules and being prohibited to be counted. I am so grateful that Bill Wilson had a huge ego and did what he and Dr. Bob did for us, to have a place in society today and a Program we can live by.

Gwen, there are more sober AA people out there NOT on anti-depressants then ON anti-depressants is my experience. I identify with many observations in your post as the same has happened here in my little hamlet, which on certain evenings is overrun by people from a recovery home and the sharing is totally different in those AA meetings then in the other AA meetings up here.

There are great, good and not so good recovery homes, and some do pump patients full of drugs, to be almost incoherent at AA meetings. However, I go to AA meetings all over the USA and that is NOT the common rule, except maybe in the Alano Clubs, they are often not the bedrock of mental health is my experience.

Depression though is a bear, and those in AA that need help at certain times in sobriety are not the ones I hope you lump in with the rest. I have seen both samples in AA, and the ones that are often sober for a longer time, are taking an active part in their own recovery of depression, like they did to get sober. People with a “mental illness” can also be alcoholics, I certainly would never deny anyone the right to attend AA meetings.

Norm P. is correct, the leader/trusted servant in an AA meeting is responsible to keep on topic and LEAD!

A month ago I had to be in a court room and sat there for about 3 hours. The judge was a crossing between Dr. Ruth and Judge Judy, she tried to be so popular and played to the audience. She “sentenced” everybody there to AA meetings, she also knew the meeting places and the times by heart. I sat there in utter amazement, no matter if it was a drug offense, petty theft, disturbing the peace and one child molesting case, etc., all were “sentenced” to AA. Of course we get a lot of “outside” issues and crap in AA today with actions like that. It was such an eye opener for me and gave me a better understanding what goes on within AA and our meetings. Being a judge, she accused one gal that she did not look “drug free” to her (the judge) and gave her more AA meetings to go to.

There are many new groups forming this moment that are dual afflicted, being sober alcoholics and on anti-depressant drugs, because they feel persecuted by AA members. Mitchell K. is one that is involved with that, so we all will have a place!


Member: Carol B
Location: NV
Date: 8/25/01
Time: 5:45:50 PM

Comments

Hello All, I'm Carol and I am an alcoholic. Welcome to the newcomers and PLEASE don't judge AA by the posts you find on here. Unfortunately, just about anything goes on these Internet boards. The up-side of this is that you will see first hand that some of us are sicker than others. As someone already stated here, a meeting leader has some knowledge of the traditions and will, pretty much not allow the topic to go too astray. Take what sounds like good sane(sober)sharing and leave the rest. Brenda K you will find that a real (face to face) AA meeting will show you more of the personal and hopefully loving side of it's members. Resentment and anger seem to (more often than not) be the first 2 emotions we allow ourselves to "FEEL" and because we are alcoholics we will grab them and run with them until they hurt so much that we finally realize that we must let them go and give them up to the "power greater that ourselves" that we ever so slowly come to know and trust in our sobriety. Thank you and I sure hope we have a more understandable topic to share our ES&H on tomorrow.


Member: JoeE
Location: Ohio, USA
Date: 8/25/01
Time: 7:23:02 PM

Comments

Hi all!!! I'm Joe and I'm an alcoholic... and I have been diagnosed as bi-polar. I have been "around" AA since 1978. I have relapsed several times basically because I wasn't ready to be thorough and honest. I found all kinds of reasons for not going to meetings and was very intolerant of some of the members of AA... I became very good at taking inventories of those around me as well as wondering about other member's motives for being in AA... it took the heat off of me taking a good look at myself. I had over 5 years of sobriety prior to my last relapse... I was not nor had I been on any medication... After my relapse and subsequent hospitalization... I was put on various anti-depressants. It is now 7 years later... I have not felt the need for anti- depressants until recently... notice I said "I" have not felt the need. When "I" have a problem with my moods... I talk to my sponsor... when I have a problem with my sobriety... I go to a meeting GEEZ!!! TODAY I try to keep my nose out of things that aren't my business and pray for those who think that I am their business. Today I am sober... I go to meetings... take what I need and leave the rest. Also, if something someone says, bothers me for more than a minute or two... I usually find it's something important.


Member: Chris H.
Location: Fla.
Date: 8/25/01
Time: 8:26:29 PM

Comments

Chris here alcoholic/addict/bulimic....COme on guys...let's get back to Experience , strength , and hope...I usually try to ignore the "shinanigins" some people get into on this sight, but this time it has gotten out of control. I don't want the newcomer to get discouraged from returning to this sight. Alcoholism is a serious, life threatening disease , and for some of us this is the only meeting we are able to get to. Let's hope that next week we can be more productive..As for the topic.... who knows what it is... I need to talk about rigerous self honesty.. It is so very difficult, but so vital to my sobriety. It was just brought to my attention that I have not been honest about something very serious. I have been having a pity party for myself all day and I need to get out of it. I can't change the past , and I can't worry about tomorrow... All I can do is the best I can today. I have some ammends to make and some right living to do. Thank God we have this program to show us the way. see you nest week...


Member: Mike G
Location: MN
Date: 8/26/01
Time: 2:10:36 AM

Comments

I know everyone has there opinion on many matters and here our mine. In response to Gwen's topic and regarding children...

-Who are we to judge?

and..

-Who are we to re-write the Big Book?

As far as I understand; the only rule is "the desire...", not the desire and...

As Ganny quoted "when someone out there cries out for help then the hands of AA must be there, for that I am responsible"

"must be there..." not must be there only if.

This is not intended for battle (lord knows I have more of a battle ahead of me already. Just to get/stay sober). These are just my thoughts, please take them as such.


Member: Mary K.
Location: California
Date: 8/26/01
Time: 4:02:53 AM

Comments

Gwen --

For a disgusting drunk, you certainly have a high opinion of yourself. Maybe you should start your own AA group -- for people who cannot be on any medication of any kind and who have to pass some I.Q. test (to meet the vocabulary requirement).

What would you say to an alcoholic on Antibuse? They are not deserving of AA because they didn't do it "the hard way" (presumably, like YOU did?) They only requirement here is a desire here is to get off alcohol. Your posts are so filled with HATE, I feel sorry for you.


Member: Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/26/01
Time: 9:03:10 AM

Comments

Dear Everyone,

I find it very interesting that ALL the negitive responses I got to my posts, from people who see my passion and concern as "Hate," are people on some kind of medication-self-perscribed, or otherwise. In turn, I would like to share a part of my recovery with you. I had a very close friend in AA,who kept going back out. Well, she came from a very wealthy family who would rather she be "mentally ill," than alcoholic. Anyway, one day, I learned that my friend had gone back out. Then, her parents sent her to a mental hospital, where some "expert" decided she was manic. Now, here was an alcholic, who went on regular "romps" who went to meetings but never worked the steps or got a sponcer, and these "experts' could not understand why my friend was experiencing emotional highs and lows-go figure? Then, there's my little brother. He came to meetings an got sober, then he met a girl and moved in with her two days later. Then they broke up and he got drunk. Then he came back, met another girl, moved in with her and well, you can guess the rest. Well, instead of coming back to AA, he checked himself into a mental ward, and with no physical testing what-so-ever, a doctor told him his tangled emotions were the result of a bi-polar disorder. From there, he was never the same again. Now, he is a virtual drug store. His doctors keep experimenting with meds, to find just the "right" combination, to "fix" him. In turn, where he was once a person who had a job, and a life, he now vegitates in a low income housing apt. gets SSI-YET STILL DRINKS LIKE A FISH. By the way, did I tell you my brother never got a sponcer, or even tried to work the steps. My point is, if someone truly is bi-polar, and they are put on meds, shouldn't the quality of their lives get better? And, is it not possible that many of these people are mis-diagnosed by a medical community that might never understand alcoholism.This is what I'm seeing, people coming to AA with their pockets full of meds from treatment centers, who hear they "might" have a chemical imbalance in their brains. Then, they are given a choice, to either stick around AA, to go with the bi-polar diagnosis-one that in my area is diagnosed with NO SORT OF PHYSICAL TESTING, AND IS ALL DONE ON THE BASIS OF A SHORT MEETING WITH SOME "EXPERT," as in the case of my brother. Well, let me see, which choice might a frightened, confused newly sober drunk take? You see, in my town, a bi-polar diagnosis is a one way ticket to easy street-or so many folks seem to think. I hate to see people not give the AA program a chance, by panicking at the first sign of depression and running to a doctor, sure as anything that what they are feeling must be something out of the ordinary-something that needs to be medicated, instead of experienced. Emotions are not a disease! Sure, although I did not go through treatment, I remember coming off my "pink cloud" and being hit by a tidal wave of depression. My first thought was to take this matter to a doctor. Instead my sponcer asked me to take this matter one day at a time, and try to overcome my depression by getting active in AA,by joining a homegroup (etc) An, I'll tell you, it was hard, and painful, but when I tried her suggestions, I slowly began to feel better. And for christ sake, it's natural for a newly sober drunk to go through extreme emotional highs and lows. Now, if the depression did not subside, and I became a threat to myself, my sponcer advised me to seek out mental health avenues. My point is, I TRIED this route, and it worked for me. On the otherhand, I see newly sober people panicking at the first sign of a down day, and picking up the pills, instead of trying AA. I feel about this matter the same way my sponcer does. If someone asks me to sponcer them, and if they're on antidepressants, I go to their doctor and try to find out what's going on. And believe me many doctors and shrinks won't give AA's the time of day! If a potential piedgon is on antidperessants, first we discuss the possibility of being weined off them- with the cooperation of their doctor-unless they DEFINITLY HAVE PROBLEMS OTHER THAN ALCOHOLISM. The problem is, most newly sober people don't want to get off them-and frankly, what newly sober drunk would want to? So, to all you folks out there on mild antidepressants and such, how many of you have been properly diagnosed with brain x-rays, blood work (etc) and have gotten second opinions as to your condition? And how many of you got on antidepressants early in recovery, and just never tried to get off them? All, I know is, I am so grateful that I did not go that route, because from what I'm seeing, people who get on them, never seem to get off them. If I hurt anyone's feelings, I'm truly sorry. I just have this unique way of getting peoples attention. On the otherhand, would you all like me to be so passive-agressive that I just let you do what ever you wanted, no matter what the consequences may be?


Member: AnilG
Location: Mt Vernon,IL
Date: 8/26/01
Time: 9:07:14 AM

Comments

I am an alcoholic, humility I believe never existed in me while I was drinking or during my drinking days but now since I have been sober I understood the meaning of humility a step closure to god helps me to continue to practice or atleast reminds me to practice spirituality It helps me to be a better person for a change after years of arrogance/false pride/hatefulness/grandiosity /selfcenterdness thankful to all AA and alanon members.


Member: Patricia
Location: New York
Date: 8/26/01
Time: 9:43:36 AM

Comments

Good morning to all fellow AA's,

First I must say the most important thing of the day is I am sober for another day.

I have not picked up a drink. THE ONLY REQUIREMENT FOR MEMBERSHIP IS A DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING. That is what sobriety and AA is all about. Welcome to all the newcombers. Keep sharing, be honest, and keep the focus on staying sober JUST FOR TODAY! Thanks all for your shares. Talk to you soon.


Member: Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/26/01
Time: 10:31:33 AM

Comments

Just out of curiosity, where have you been Jack N? Believe it or not, I sort of miss your unique brand of bantering. Hope you are well.


Member: Gwen
Location:
Date: 8/26/01
Time: 11:50:55 AM

Comments

Ok, I promis I'll touch on this subject one more time, and then shut up about it. For all you folks out there on antidepressants, perscribed by doctors who "know it all," remember just less than a hundred years ago, doctors who also "knew the right thing to do," used to treat alcoholism by locking, what we would today consider a garden variety alcholic, in a mental hospital. Also, I have a dear friend, an old-timer who in the 1930's had her alcoholism treated by electrict shock treatments in a "snake pit" mental hospital, and all because a well respected Boston "expert" thought it was the "right thing to do." Now, in this generation, we have doctors and counsilers handing out antidepressants as if they were candy, and passing out bi-polar diagnosises right and left, because they believe they are, just like their forfathers," doing the right thing." My point is, if all those doctors way back when, whose methods we now consider to be inhumane and horrifying, could have been so wrong,could not history be repeating itself? I just hope that all you self-diagnosed folks out there will please seek out a medical professional to give you a proper physical, and tests like blood work, brain x-rays (etc) to determine wheither you truly are a duel diagnosis. If, after having this done, and after getting a second opinion, it's proven without a doubt that you do indeed need meds,which by not taking will put your life and that of those around you in danger, please take them. However, if you got a "revolving door" diagnosis like my brother,from a professional who medicated you on the basis of speculation, rather than fact, please find another doctor, have the necessairy tests done, and get the facts. After all, if you had been wrongly diagnosed, and could live your life med free, isn't it worth a shot. If it were me I would want to know.