Member: Mark
Location: Illinois
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 9:34:22 AM

Comments

Let's talk about how we handle deceptive people in the program. I have recently run into several and I am beginning to think I don't want to be in this program when there are so many deceiving people that try to screw ya. Could use some suggestions.


Member: Lynn C.
Location: Southern Illinois
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 9:37:15 AM

Comments

Wow Monday morning and I don't see anything posted here, there must be something wrong. If by the odd chance I am actually the first here how about talking about the Courage to Change the things I can.


Member: Joe H.
Location: San Diego
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 10:44:44 AM

Comments


Member: Joe H.
Location: San Diego
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 11:05:19 AM

Comments

I think I like the topic "courage to change"is a little bit better. It hasnt been my experince that anyone has tried to "screw me". Just the opposite. We do have sick people but on the whole, loving people that really want to help. So on the topic courage to change. I really didnt have any type of courage when I got here. It was more like desperation to stop killing myself. I found courage through other sober members of the program. I listened to thier stories and seen that they had come through to the other side of thier difficulties. I belive it is how or one of the ways that my HP communicates to me. I know when I am going through something it seems like its going to be like this forever but it has always past. Change I belive happens through action. I cant sit at home hopeing that I will change or things in my life will change. I need to get up off mt Butt, stop thinking about change and do it. I guess thats kind of simplistic but its how it works. sometimes I have to ask my HP for the help to change, to bless me with the willingness to take action, to replace defects of charachter with spritual principles. In the 12&12 is the prayer of ST. Francis(see step 11) and It talks directly about this. God Bless you and Thanks


Member: Mark
Location: Illinois
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 11:33:32 AM

Comments

Hey Lynn and Joe..It seems I posted a topic here. Why are you guys ignoring it and going off on your own topic? I thought the first one here chose the topic and as you can see I was the first to post. I would like to hear from some people about what I picked as a topic. Sorry, I don't mean to sound mean or anything but isn't that the way this ist works? If not, will you guys please explain the real rules so I can make sure to follow them.


Member: Sidney B.
Location: Atlanta , Georgia
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 11:57:52 AM

Comments

(((Mark))) We love your topic.Thanks for the suggestion. O.K. let's see......"Can an Alkie attend too many meetings?" Very interesting topic Mark.


Member: Just another member
Location: Anywhere USA
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 12:09:27 PM

Comments

Mark, there are deceptive people everywhere. You (or I) just need to be able to pick them out. I haven't personally had a problem but I have heard people at meetings that gossip and say hateful things; I just avoid them. They aren't good for my wellbeing. On the whole, most members are kind and encouraging. By the way, you do have the rules right. Sometimes, I think, perhaps, two people post at close to the same time and both topics come up. PLEASE...this is a new week. Let's see if we can all get along! Enough of the nitpicking. We are loosing good members because of it. Let us all keep with the spirit of AA. Love to all and another sober 24!


Member: Harry K.
Location: England
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 1:01:38 PM

Comments

Easy does it Mark, your in cyber space now. This shit happens. I'm an alcoholic named Harry. As for deceptive people....who do you thing came into A.A? I don't believe any of us were poster children of integrity and good character before coming in, and I doubt if anyone would volunteer for such a position now! I know I wouldn't. I'm (like 95% of us)just trying to improve on the person I was before I got here. Some, as Bill W. said "constitutionaly inapable of being honest with themselves". That's not to say there aren't preditors about, A.A has it's fair share of 13th stepers, and I find them repugnant. Would I leave A.A because of them? Shit no!! Not on MY life (or more aprapo, my sobriety), I hang out with people who like myself, aspire to improve. The cost? Making a phone call when I'm stuck in my shit or receiving one from another who might be stuck in theirs. Nobody asks me for money or to invest in some scheame or nonsence like that. What does your sponser have to say about it? As for "the Courage to change"' Like Joe H said, I did most of the early work out of desperation. For me that was the best motivation I could have had. My first "Act" of courage came when I asked someone to be my sponsor! After that, I followed his advice and listened to the wisdom from many of the others I'd hear in the rooms. As a result of working each of these steps, I was provided with more tools. The "changes" that would come about were not even noticable to me, though as life went on I noticed I could often work through a resentment in 2 hours as opposed to two weeks or longer! I also discovered I was fine being part of a team without having to "prove" myself or run the show. My sponsor once told me that courage was not the absence of fear, it was the willingness to move forward in spite of my fears. It works for me. And as I continue my never ending journey, I realise the changes that have occured in me are not so much a measure of the things i've gained, but more the "excess bagadge" I've been able to drop along the way. It just happens as a result of "Working it". God bless you guy's and thanks for letting me type! (though there are many)


Member: DonF
Location: NH
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 2:07:36 PM

Comments

Don, recovering alky, Actually, the first two notes for different topics may not be so different. Can we change anyone BUT ourselves? How DO we handle deceptive people? Watch out for them, I guess. Try to be perceptive. If you screw me once, shame on you. If you screw me twice, shame on ME! I heard if you sober up a drunken horse thief, you get a sober horse theif. I'd prefer to believe if we get sober, we have a shot at getting better than JUST sober, even progressing to removing defects of character. Maybe my expectations are too high, but most AA's agree that working the steps leads to cleaning house on these. Yeah, some "just don't drink", so it takes all kinds to make a fellowship....


Member: sunny s
Location: New Bedford, Mass
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 4:49:42 PM

Comments

One of the things I was told at my first AA meeting was that I was about to join the biggest association of liars, cheats and thieves in the world. I didn't want to admit that that comforted me. Weird. But, there I was trying to lie my way out of trouble, and fear. Then, there was how I was cheating my kids out of a decent life with a sober Mom, and my employer etc. Then there was how I'd backstab to get ahead of the competition. Then, how I was always looking to cut a corner to avoid paying my way. I wasn't living according to what I deep down thought was right. I'd heard enough 5th steps before I ever came to AA to know who was here already.

From time to time, I see people come in and complain about who is here and how they don't play fair. One of the biggest laughs I ever heard at a meeting was when a woman said she'd met a lot of vermin since she got sober........ and they all were in the program. "We are not saints.." Actually, the process of waking up sober includes learning that people aren't always who they say they are.... no matter how good it sounds. Just like real life. Yet, some of the oldtimers seem unreal in their serenity until you get to know them.

What AA has taught me to do is to pray for the jerks, their victims, and to pray for guidance. I can get a hot resentment about posers. I'm not above growling at a 13th stepper sniffing around one of the newcomers. When I hear a money or property con going down in the halls, I usually find a way to give the mark a heads up. There are more than a couple of people who decided to try to sell high to a disabled person rather than junk a useless old car. Street values say that you keep your mouth shut.

My church, which is very involved in social justice, says "Never be silent nor inactive in the face of injustice....never." That's a lot of trouble to take on, but there is a part of me that is going to say that the emperor is naked if he is indeed naked. (child's story "The Emperor's New Clothes) I am very aware that not everyone agrees with those values. I've always, even before sobriety, had a committment to service work. There is a line between service and rescue. I try to let H.P. and my sponsor advise me of the difference. My sponsor has been known to growl at 13th steppers too.

Everybody has to come to their own values through the steps and HP"s guidance. When someone tells me something in confidence as their sponsor, it's not my business to act on it unless there is a life at stake. I do get to say that I don't agree with the choice because AA has taught me that if I'm to survive I have to be rigorously honest in my words and actions. But everybody gets to make their own choices. Even when you let folks know that everything may not be as it seems, they get to choose their path, and take their own lumps when H.P. wills it. It's very important for me not to campaign for or against, but to try to stay in H.P.'s will and my sponsor's advice.

As a mother, I used to get frustrated that I couldn't just put my experience in a capsule for my kids to swallow. Today, I try to respect each person's right to learn their own lessons. As I sponsor a number of women with thinking, feeling and learning disabilities, I do know that I am trusted to use my intelligence for the benefit of others. I do not run anyones life and I sponsor a feisty bunch who wouldn't let me anyway. But, I do tell it as I see it, admitting that I could be wrong, but this is how it looks.

The best AA advice about dealing with people comes in steps 4-9. This is the walk. It is more important that <I> walk it than anybody else. The only sobriety I can work on is mine. The only inventory I can change is mine. The only part of H.P.'s advice I can hear is for me. I'm always hearing, "Pray for the Jerks!". Usually that's all I can do. it's the best thing I can do for me.


Member: KIM D.
Location: BOSTON
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 4:53:42 PM

Comments

Hello folks. I'm Kim, grateful recovering alcoholic and addict. This is my first time on this site and I have to say THANKS to those who share and to those who maintain this site. It's a perfect way to go to an AA meeting on my lunch break at work! Anyway, I agree with Don F. that the two topics are inter-related. It's all the the Serenity Prayer. We can not change people (deceptive or not), we do have the ability to change ourselves and half of the battle for me is knowing the difference between the two. I have encountered less than honest people in the Program and I accept that I can not change them and try to steer clear of them and run with those who's sobriety I respect. My sponsor told me that recovering alcoholics should have at least 3-4 people in their "inner circle." I have those people whom I can trust with issues of my recovery/life. The rest I am respectful of and friendly to, but that's it. In-so-far as the courage to change is concerned, I have found that pain is a great motivator. Once I begin to recognize something in myself that is less than desirable, it becomes increasingly unfortable to keep doing the same behavior. I then pray to God to help me work through my fear of change and trust that He has a plan for me. Oh yeah... I may do this several times a day!!! I keep taking back the fear of change constantly... but I am aware of it today and constantly ask for the guidance and strength to walk through it. Thanks for letting me share.


Member: Susan S.
Location: Tahlequah, OK
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 7:55:04 PM

Comments

Susan, alcoholic. When I came in to the program I made a decision to do what ANYONE told me to do. I knew I was insane and that I didn't know nuttin. I also asked my Higher Power for protection (and do so every morning). Since that time, my discernment has grown, but God still leads me to those people that I may help; I certainly cannot and will not sit in judgment of anyone. If I am truly accepting I realize that if I am "screwed" by someone in the program then that is the lesson that I was to learn. I can't fight anyone else's battles either; my righteous indignation at any injustices I see perpretrated against someone else got me drunk many, many times. I just live my life one day at a time as best I can and leave the judging and consequences to that power greater than myself.


Member: Michelle S
Location: Canada
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 9:25:51 PM

Comments

Hi everyone. Been awhile since I've been to this site. Avril, ya still out there? I've been sober for over 7 months now, have a group and a sponsor, but I'm white knuckling it like I haven't done since my first couple of months of sobriety. I don't know if these feelings are normal, but I can't figure out why I am doing this. They say that alcoholics have real twisted thinking and I certainly have to agree with that. I know that I feel better, can look people in the eyes, and am not living with that overwhelming sense of guilt any longer. I thought though, that if you went to meetings, worked the twelve steps, and turned your will and your life over to the care of God as you understand him that things would get better. Having done that, I sit here with seven months sobriety wondering if God has a real perverse sense of humor, or if he just hates me. I have no idea who I am anymore, I have no definition of myself except that I am an alcoholic, and I didn't want that to begin with. So I sit here thinking about drinking, wondering why I went through all those changes if in the real world, nothing ever changes. I apologize to everyone who wrote before me for meandering off the topic for the week, but I'm at the brink. I know that its the first drink that gets you drunk and to drink is to die....Oh, I don't know, I'm too angry and frustrated to talk to God, and I just...I just don't know. Thanx for letting me share


Member: Marv B.
Location: Bedford, Tx.
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 9:39:50 PM

Comments

I'm Marv and I'm an alcoholic. One of the beautiful challenges of this program is learning to live life on life's terms which to me includes accepting people as they are and not as how I would want them to be. I'm grateful for my sponsor who told me to "Stick around, and I'd see miracles happen." Thank God I was too dumb to find flaws in other people at the time. (As I grew in AA that changed and I had to work on it harder to look for the good in others.) He told me to take what I could use and let the rest go on by. Then after a while I reminded my sponsor of what he'd said about my seeing miracles happen if I'd stick around and I told him I've been seeing them. He said, "You're one of them." That was 31 years ago, and I'm ever bit as grateful today as I was then. You will see the promises of AA unfold in your life too, Mark. Just Stick Around and the miracles will happen for you.


Member: GREGG G.
Location: KENNEWICK, WA
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 9:47:50 PM

Comments


Member: sick of
Location: Da duck
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 10:39:12 PM

Comments

Great topic. thank you Mark.

Damm, found more Ducksh@#$t Talk about deception, Tonydaduck is a perfect example of deception in AA. He postes under many names! Alway complains! need I say more?

Example: Member: Sidney B. Location: Atlanta , Georgia Date: 5/15/00 Time: 11:57:52 AM Comments (((Mark))) We love your topic.Thanks for the suggestion. O.K. let's see......"Can an Alkie attend too many meetings?" Very interesting topic Mark.

Well I do wish I had the answer as to what to do w/these kind of people. I am just glad I can tell who they are & try to stay away from them.


Member: Molly
Location: Arizona
Date: 5/15/00
Time: 10:44:53 PM

Comments

Good topic. I have been "around" AA since 1986,I chose to drink over an unfortunate incident in Nov. 1998 and my dry date now is 11-19-98. For Michelle, I know what you are going thru. I have been there. When that craving has kicked in in the past it turns you inside out. I thought I was gonna go crazy once in San Antonio and the River Walk. I was literally wanting to grab drinks or empty glasses off tables and lick or guzzle. We stopped at a convenience store and while the alanon was paying for the gas, I ran in and twisted off a few. It was horrible. That was several summers ago. I pray for God to remove the desire from me to consume anything with alcohol in it on a daily basis. I thank God it has worked for awhile now. Back to the topic...due to isolation in NM I had a male sponsor once. The inuendoes got old. I got unsponsored and found a woman. I have learned to set boundaries and try to hang with the winners. I have been fortunate, I have never felt really miseled or put upon. I haven't wanted to be bosom buddies with all of them. I found out later my ex sponsor was a recovering sex addict God bless him. Thank you all for being here.


Member: Kristin L. (10 yrs.)
Location: Cent. OH
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 12:07:36 AM

Comments

Alcoholic named Kristin. Very interesting topic and just what I needed to hear. I recently, against all I believe, got involved with a lady with less then a year sober. She had been "13 stepped" by her sponsor, a woman with 3 years. My intentions were not to sponsor her and I made that clear. We began sharing and them after some time we dated. This lasted a month or so and I did not in any way hinder her journey. She had her own REAL sponsor and I told her to call her on several occasions where she tried to get me to "fix" her. Anywho, her first sponsor, the one who bedded her got out of this treatment center for sexual abuse issues and came home. I stopped dating this lady and told her to resolve her issues with her sponsor (the ligit one). She begged me to keep seeing her and I gave in after a while. 3 days later she ran off with the first(sick)sponsor. 3 weeks later she begged me to take her back again. I did, against my better judgement. 3 days later (last week) she ran off with her version of the drink. This being the first sponsor again. Things have gotten worse as rumors about the situation abound. A few about me, but thank HP that my side of the street is clean. I treated her with respect and allowed her to be who she was. Who she is is sick and emotionally unavailable. I made the poor choices. She was doing what she had always known to get by on the streets.

My point is if I stop living my program because I'm focused on getting other people to HEAR me and what I think is right for them, then I'm putting a hold on doing the next right thing. I waste precious time trying to get people to see things my way. I don't know what others need to be doing. They are just doing their own journey, good, bad, or indifferent. I'm not perfect as you can see from this post. I have over 10 years of sobriety and yet I still make poor decisions. We didn't all get here well. If we did we wouldn't need AA. Remember, progress not perfection.

I could look at things like I got screwed, but self-honesty can't allow me to do that. It all begins and ends with me. My side of the street is all I can clean. It is MY choice the type of people who are involved in my life. I have to make the choice to change who I surround myself with in recovery because we aren't all here for the same reason.

Just stay! Please! We need you! Sorry for the lengthy post. This topic just struck at an opportune time for me to share the bare facts about me.


Member: Jack B.
Location: Cumbola Pa.
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 3:03:44 AM

Comments

Hi I am Jack a real alcoholic.Good topic Mark, a little different but it has merit. I have been a sober member of Alcoholic's Anonymous for a good number of 24hr's and the longer I have been around I find the less I know. If I am examining the faults of others, I am gaining a better insight into myself.I need to remember to thy own self be true.Also remembering to listen for the message and not the messenger helps when some people become just a little too much for me on certain days.The only requirement we place on people is that they have a desire to stop drinking.Thanks for a good topic Mark and keep coming back.


Member: Robert B.
Location: Boise  Idaho
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 3:05:52 AM

Comments

My name is Robert, and I am an alcoholic.

Mark, I cannot offer you advice, only my own experience. I never placed my trust in anyone bfore I got to AA, and I was not quick to trust anyone after I got here either. My first sponsor told me to put my trust in the Higher Power, and to practice patience and tolerance on my fellow alcoholics. That is what I tried to do, to the best of my ability.

Now that I've been sober for several years, I still place my trust in God. I trust alkies to be alkies. Some are amongst the finest people I've ever known. Some I don't trust to tell the truth about the time of day. Interestingly enough, doing it the way I've been taught, I've never been ripped off.

Of course I've never had a lot of stuff or money, but being as I was never out to get over on my fellow alkies, I was also never a very good target.

Do keep coming back. Trust God, Clean house, help others.

Peace Robert


Member: Gabrielle P
Location: Mansfield, TX
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 7:37:39 AM

Comments

Gabrielle, Grateful, Recovering alcoholic here. Mark there are many different forms of deceit and hurt in the world and I don't believe that we are limited by the type we see in the rooms. Some are just unable to get honest with themselves which in turn prevents them from being honest others as well. It is painful to have someone deceive and take what we have worked so hard to gain but you see the material things I can replace, they can never take from me what makes me the person I am. I to have been taken advantage of in such a manner and I am grateful that I didn't have to drink over it, or allow a resentment to develope that affected my self esteem or change my way of working my program. I can't change others and when someone hurts me it is an opportunity to grow within ourselves and to attempt to reflect that outward as an example of what I have learned and be given as a gift from this program. I strive for progress not perfection and as long as I don't allow someone else's actions direct my life I am one step ahead of where I was when I got here. Pray for them, show them the true developement of self that is possible when one get honest, be a guide to them and show them the way to walk the talk. In Sobriety, In AA, In Life. Gabrielle


Member: Kim S.
Location: Michigan
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 8:31:31 AM

Comments

Hi all! (((((HUGS))))) Alcoholic named Kim, here. Couple of great topics mentioned. And I agree that they go hand in hand. I have learned that THE ONLY thing I CAN change is me & my attitudes. If someone offends me, I have to look inside & find out why (usually my own defect rearing it's ugly head). I have to pray for the person (usually...hope the SOB gets what he deserves) until the patience, tolerance, kindness, & love of this program turns the prayer to 'help him/her.'

I have been taught that ALL of us have some good & some bad in us & that I should look for the good. I can learn from both! None of us came into this program happy, joyous, free, or healthy...but we can LEARN these things by doing the steps with our sponsor; at least that's how it is for me. As for taking others' inventory, I don't have time...too much of my own to work on. I can be; however, an example of a work in progress. My sponsor told me that I may be the only BB someone ever 'reads' & should; therefore, try my best to be a good example of living this program, one day/hour/minute at a time...whatever it takes.

If I let myself get all worked up over what someone else is or isn't doing 'right', I can (very easily) take the focus off of myself. If I do that, sobriety in my life lose it's central focus & I'm off to 'Wonderland' again. No thanx! I don't want to be what I was because I hated her with a passion! I like the person I am becoming & that's only happening because I'm always working on her! Thanx AA!


Member: Sharon
Location: Ma.
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 9:02:35 AM

Comments

Hi I am an alcoholic that is still drinking. I can't seem to stop. I tried a few meetings I just don't think it is for me. Have you ever woken up with pain in your chest. I wake up that way everyday, I know it is from drinking. I am up to a large bottle of wine or at least a six pack a night. I wish there was a pill I could take that would make me stop but there isn't. I get worried about my chest because the pain is always there lately, like anxiety pain not severe. I feel like shit all the time. I tried meetings but never got really involved. I found the people to be honest and happy! I did not encounter deception so I can't comment on the subject, sorry Mark. I can say that when I do run into people like that in life I just stay away. I see people talking about how they love AA, I just don't get it. I would leave meetings feeling worse. I never got a sponsor or joined a group. If I keep on this road I will crash, I don't know what to do. I feel like I could never walk into another meeting it has been 2 months. Besides I have yet to feel the benefits. Any advice?


Member: Diane S.
Location: N.Y.
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 9:35:16 AM

Comments

(((Sharon))) If you feel that AA is not for you that it's ok to feel that way. You can try other ways to stop. The important thing is that you DO stop.

Drinking to excess can lead to an awful existence.


Member: tonydaduck
Location: N.E.
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 9:45:42 AM

Comments

(((Kristin L))) Reading your post it seems to me that you may need to not be so "hard" on yourself.

We all make "bad"decisions regardless of how long our sobriety is or isn't.

We are first : HUMANS!

Forgiving others is noble forgiving ourselves is essential.

The best to you on your journy.


Member: Sheri F
Location: Portland,Oregon
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 10:25:48 AM

Comments

Hi,my name is Sheri and I'm an alocholic. To those who are upset with the deception and 13 steppers that goes on in some of our meetings, may I remind us that we have 3 fingers pointing at us when we point at the other person. I've been active in this program and sober for 22 years and I have seen all kinds come thru these doors, some thought they were saints when they got here, some knew they were horse theives, some had never been to jail, some couldn't stay out of jail. No matter what you are or where you are, what you do, as we come thru the doors we are equal, a DESIRE to stop drinking is the ONLY requirement for membership. I was not the nicest person when I got here but I was beat, no where else to go,no one wanted me around EXCEPT this group of "horse theives" who accepted me as I was, prayed for me when I couldn't, loved me and was willing to guide me into the program that could save my life. Because I didn't like the meetings, the people, or anything about AA, I was told to keep coming back until I did. The hardest part for most of us is learning that the Serenity Prayer says tochange the things I can (me) accept the things I cannot change (them) and the very hardest is to learn the difference between them and me. The more you go to meetings, the harder you try to WORK the program, the easier softer way will become the AA way. Personal opinion only!! Thanks for being here. If I never say anything to anyone again, I cannot urge you to take your dose of medicine daily. If you were a diabetic, you would take your insulin. If you have the disease of Alcoholism, the "Medicine" is AA, try it for 30 days. Honestly give it your very best shot, if it still doesn't work after 30 days, I'll be happy to refund your misery in duplicate. If there is a wee bit of improvement, sign up for another 30 day hitch. Ok, I had best hush, I have to remember this is a program of attraction not my lectures, haha.. This does work!!!

Sheri


Member: Deceitful Dan
Location: Liesville,Fibalota
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 10:44:18 AM

Comments

(((Mark)))

You may not want to hear this but.........MAYBE YOU ARE THE DECEPTIVE ONE?


Member: tony g
Location: ma
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 10:50:45 AM

Comments

for me the courage to change is ..to stay the course...which is to remain sober on a daily basis and face all of the difficulties that arise,while doing so. aa and the people in it help me do this...keep it simple...mark,their are snakes in the grass everywhere,go by your gut instincts for now.but don't drink because of it.


Member: JMS
Location: middle of nowhere
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 10:53:16 AM

Comments

JMS here an alcoholic

Sheri F I got so much out of your letter. I have been toying with AA for a while now (the first time in 1993) and I have said the serenity prayer countless times but it was almost like a flash of lightening reading your letter. Maybe I was away the day they explained it in the group... but suddenly it makes sense,

Accept the things I cannot change THEM, and the courage to change the things I can ME! I know it seems self explanatory , but I never thought of it like that. And the wisdom to know the difference between THEM and ME

Ssometimes we can't see what is blindingly obvious, maybe it's my foggy mind, but it's slowly clearing 12 days and filled with hope.

I can't get to meetings at the moment but hope to stock-up at the end of the month when I travel.

Could someone tell me what 13th stepping is please?

Very grateful you are all here


Member: David k
Location: Australia
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 12:51:19 PM

Comments

I feel that there is a lot of alkies out there that gets a rather funny slant on soberiety after awhile. Hey Mark if you feel that you are getting screwed then maybe its time you accepted the fact of who you are then put some action into this wonderfull program for living that we have. i say this because of the fact that you are obviously aware that thew r is more to this than just sitting around moping....


Member: Joe B
Location: Lakeland, FL
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 1:07:47 PM

Comments

Hi, I'm Joe and I am an alcohlic. Sober for only 17 months and married to a deceitful woman for 22 years who still drinks behind my back and refuses to participate in my recovery. No Al-Anon, no meetings with me, nothing. Even refuses to seek joint marriage counseling.

I have found that I was very resentful toward her and her attitude until I just let go and refused to get in the middle of her problem and starting worrying about me and how I was responding to her comments.

By asking my Higher Power to still my spirit and help me regain a positive attitude and outlook on MY life, I have regained a little serenity and peace in my life that I was destroying by dwelling on her.

Thank God for AA and all the wonderful souls who have taught my how to use the tools that my Higher Power has given me to cope with life- good , bad or indifferent!


Member: Michelle R.
Location: Topeka, Kansas
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 1:38:52 PM

Comments

Deceitful people/ Courage to Change What a concept.


Member: richard m
Location: sarasota, florida
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 1:44:06 PM

Comments

The best way( my name is richard, i am an alcoholic) to handle deceptive people is to not be deceptive yourself.............remember we do not take other peoples inventory .even when they lay it out for us .....!


Member: Lynn C.
Location: Southern Illinois
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 2:28:38 PM

Comments

Mark, thank you for the topic. I wasn't ignoring your post. When we post here there is a delay, our shares are not posted instantaneously . So When I came to the site your post wasn't showing yet. Our post were within 3 minutes of each other. When this happens we stick with the first topic posted or sometimes people choose to combine the topics as some have already done, if they are compatible.

Dealing with deceptive people. I have to stick with the winner in this fellowship. I also have to be careful of my own denial level here. For me denial didn't stop with my drinking problem. I can easily fall victim to my own wishful thinking when I don't want to face the reality of a situation that might be painful for me. When I am able to face life on life's terms though, then the deceivers are only fooling themselves.

One thing I learned from my sponsor is this. If I can't afford to live without something time, money, possessions, etc. Then I don't give it.. If I give something in a spirit of free giving, not expecting anything back in return, then I can not lose.

In the Big Book right after the 4th step I believe, it says something to the effect that there will be those who will wrong us. If we hold resentments we are liable to drink. So what are we to do. The Book suggests that we look at these individual with understanding as they are sick individual, just as we were or still are.

Mark, in 13 years of sobriety I have found that the vast major of my fellow member here have a genuine desire to help each other stay sober, we are all in this boat together. Don't be discourage by a few who may still be suffering, maybe even pray for them, miracle do happen and either way if you do that they won't be living in your head rent free.

Michelle S

One thing I have learned that works of me is that it is OK for me to be made at my HP/ God and let him know it. For many years whenever I got made I felt that I was in the wrong and God wouldn't want to have anything to do with me. This would cut the connection between HP and me when I needed it the most. Eventually I gained enough trust in my concept of a Higher Power that I allowed myself to talk to my Higher Power When I was anger, even when I was angry at my Higher Power. For me this has really improved my contact with a loving Higher Power.


Member:     Becky P.
Location: Fl.
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 3:31:41 PM

Comments

Hello all! Newbie alkie Becky here--

Good topic, Mark. Very important to me. When I drank I tried to make sense of this world (in a stupor... brilliant, hmm?) I would argue it, beat it, fight it, tell it how unfair it was, bitch at it, cry over it, become incensed at the injustices of it--and then tell everyone else what THEY had to do about it to make this world a better place. I never wanted to look at myself and see what a sad, passive hypocrite I had become. I wanted others to practice what I refused to do and...pomposity upon pomposity...I thought I was the one who had it all together! I really thought that!

I can only repeat the lines of one of literature's most shallow, selfish characters- He was full of trite cliches and manipulative behaviors. Yes, he drank! I can see the irony in myself when I consider his lines- and they are good lines:

This above all: to thine ownself be true, And it must follow, as the night the the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Polonius from Hamlet

He and I were both poser b*********'s. I was saying the truth about myself and denied the application. Polonious did the same. There's one difference. He died due to his deceptions.

Have a healthy happy day!


Member: Pauline M.
Location: MA
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 4:25:50 PM

Comments

Hi, I'm Pauline, an alcoholic. Good topic Mark. Unfortunately yes, there are deceptive people in the program just as there are deceptive non-alcoholic people in life. This program helps us to deal with life on life's terms. We cannot change others, only ourself. I, too, found people who were deceptive but I try not to take their inventory because when I first got sober, I played that game too. I was living on the edge, one foot in the program and one still in the liquor store. It took 13 years being in and out to stop deceiving MYSELF. As Kim D.'s sponsor told her, I try now to keep close to a handful of people. My own sponsor (sober 16 years) tells me to not confide too much to anyone so,I take her suggestion.

I need to remember that some of us are sicker than others otherwise I'll get resentments which is a BIG trigger for me. Try to keep things in perspective Mark and focus on yourself and your program. Others, who choose to be deceptive, will pay the price soon enough.

Take care and God bless.


Member: Ken C
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 5:29:36 PM

Comments

Hi to all you great folks!

What with the note of resentment we are talking about in the deceitful persons topic, I am reminded about the way I used to deal with people I didn't like. Mentally, I put them in a cage in the Zoo! It made me feel better!

Today, I have learned that the cage was just my way of retaliating or trying to get even. The program says that's a no-no. Rather, I need to see that others can be spiritually ill too, and that I need to ask my HP to forgive them and to do the same myself. When I really do this, the problem goes away and I am restored to sanity and peace of mind - the only condition that allows me to be of help to others and myself. Sometimes, however, I still use the cage as a transition stage until I cool down.

Love to all - Ken


Member: anonymous
Location:
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 5:33:20 PM

Comments

Deciete and the practice of it goes on in AA. The practice of it! Be apalled, nevertheless it is so. In much of the world the best lier wins. These sensless folk are not even aware that they practice and sharpen themselves in deciete. But they don't believe their own lies. They attend meetings for to speak and having nothing to say they practice their lies, and that to the destruction of others. There are those also that are quick to rise up against anyone that veres in the least from what's called "singleness of purpose" stopping the mouths of those who would speak against the world and it's unworkable system. The program works but the system doesn't. Rather than admit that their lives are unmanagable by the world, they set about to blame themselves and alcohol and they study acceptance. The founders of AA. gathered together not to accept, but because they wouldn't accept their lives in the condition they were, but not so today. Many also profess to have a spiritual awakening and have never cracked a bible. Believe them not, they are liers. There is hope for you who brought up this topic, because you know that. Do they think to overcome the world by soberiety? Fat chance, they may dodge a few bullits but the truth shall set them free. The truth is, AA is the only bar in town. Like in a mirror face to face, the ear tests words. Many would like to think themselves to be somewhat, and for a vain glory they rattle on in their discourses, and indeed it is a discourse, for they change the course of mighty rivers by their lies and their inability to be honest. This miserable life is wonderful they say so just don't drink and go to meetings, and who belives their soberity date? Meanwhile, there may be one who is serious about turning his will and life over to the care of God, and he's the one I want to sponsor.


Member: Mary K
Location: Boston (Raynham)
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 5:41:18 PM

Comments

Hi all! Mary, alcy

Good topic Mark, thanks.....When it was my turn to learn the lesson that we all eventually learn in AA (that there ARE deceptive people in AA) I was absolutely CRUSHED. My immediate reaction was to think that the whole program was a bunch of bullshit as well as the people in it. It was devastating.

It is really easy to spout "Live and Let Live" and all the other slogans when the first experience of this sort (for me there were more to follow) is behind you or if you have never experienced it (which I find hard to believe). The first time is the hardest. I had to come to terms with the fact that there are real human beings in these halls, they were not saints as I mislead myself to believe. They, like myself, had defects of character....that was a tough pill to swallow.

Through my own experience, and that of others, I DO NOT hire someone within the program to perform a job (carpentry, plumbing, mechanic, etc). Why put a recovery relationship through possible unnecessary trials if it can be avoided.

For me this first encounter with deceptive AAs within the halls was a HUGE go or grow experience....I almost went.... but I stayed and I grew.....a little wiser in many areas of MY recovery.

My love to all - Mary.


Member: suzane D
Location: Canada
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 6:51:11 PM

Comments

My name is suzanne ;i like to think all ;of you for your comment;i enjoy reading them ;i wish all of you another 24 hours from williams lake bc,


Member: ray r.
Location: Jacksonville Fl.
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 7:19:54 PM

Comments

Hi, I have at times been discouraged by some of the people encountered at AA groups, certainly not all, but enough at times to make me feel mighty uncomfortable. This has changed over the years, and now, when I do encounter certain abrasive, judgemental, or obnoxious types, the time that they get under my skin is much less, if any at all. Hang in there...


Member: chris,c
Location: dana point, california
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 9:55:53 PM

Comments

Hi,my name is chris i need to get honest and get rid of a headfull of guilt and shut up my commitee so I CAN stay sober today. I HAVE BEEN drinking and using off and on for the past month I did not enjoy it. THANK GOD for this meeting online (my first) I NOW HAVE A CHANCE TO STAY SOBER TODAY because thats all I got. I apologize for not sticking to the topic ,but I needed to dump the baggage and move on. I FEEL RELEIVED THAT i FINALLY GOT IT OUT! THANK YOU AA for being there WITH GOD for me. I plan on attending this meeting regularly so I hope to hear from you all next week .sincerly,chris just another alcoholic!!!!!


Member: Jan S
Location: Australia
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 10:08:55 PM

Comments

Jan, Alcoholic, Are you considered a deceitful person if you fall off the wagon after 7 months sober? Fell back on old "trigger points". I would like to go back to a f2f but feel I would be seen as a failure. It helps reading all the posts here - some people have also taken awhile to get fully "back on track". Feeling rotten at the moment, but if I could only grasp the 24hr bit, one day at a time, I would be OK. Always getting overwhelmed by the big picture. So are you accepted back as an honest person trying to get help? Best wishes everyone.


Member: Dean S
Location: Phoenix, Az
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 10:16:04 PM

Comments

My name is Dean and I am an alcoholic.

Mark, I wonder if you have tried other A.A. meetings in your area? Deceitful people are in all places, but I have encountered fewer of them in A.A. than in most other places. No matter where I encounter them, I have learned to let 'em do their thing (Live & Let Live), and I'll get along O.K. If I try to change them or put up with them in my life, I'll surely be disappointed. Better to stick with the winners!! - And pray for the deceitful ones.

Thanks for allowing me to share. Thanks for your love. Thanks for my life. Dean


Member: Dean S
Location: Phoenix, Az
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 10:24:22 PM

Comments

Dean again. Alcoholic.

((Jan)) Your first question -- NO!! Your 2nd question -- YES!!


Member: Stephen R.
Location: Boston
Date: 5/16/00
Time: 10:36:42 PM

Comments

Hi All, Stephen, recovering alkie from Boston. First time visiting this site and an so grateful to have found it. Seems like there are many real peoples out here. As for the subject I can say that everyone has shared my thoughts on it and also gave me some I didn't have. I use to get all bogged up with the 13 steppers-why and how they could do it but at one point in my slip sliding recovery a sober person i knew (one with many yrs) 13th stepped me while i was drunkand it wass part of me getting sober again. It is so true that most of us come in here real sick and since it took so long to get that sick it will take as long to get well. When I walked into my first detox i was stripped of everything. A sense of morality was not in my mind-all i wanted was to get high. How can one live a day without a drink??? Now after many meetings and meditation i have to come to see and feel what I am and what i hope to be when i grow up. An old slogan in this neck of the woods is " sometimes slowly sometimes quickly". For me this tells me there is Hope. Keep the faith Mark.


Member: Ecliptick
Location: canada
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 1:33:42 AM

Comments

This message is for Michelle S your comment touched me and i would like to help if i can! I am an alcoholic and would like to tell you that im inspired that you've went 7 months without drinking. Please don't give up!!! I'm new at this whole place so i don't know how to reach you or even send you a message personnaly! So if you get this please send me an E-mail at Ecliptick@hotmail.com so we can chat! hope to hear from you!


Member: Ecliptick
Location: canada
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 3:22:23 AM

Comments

I just want to say that this place has made it alot easier for me to admit that I'm an alcoholic thank you for being here!!!!!!I wish the best of luck to all of you!!! Please ICQ me at 48102208 I NEED THE FEEDBACK!!! I WANT TO QUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Member: Door C
Location: Illinois
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 3:22:50 AM

Comments

Deceptiveness if world=wide, but AA focuses on truth. A carefully-picked sponsor can give the love and confidence one needs to stay sober, but also may have to give a kick in the posterior when you are not moving in the right direction. The promises say we will intuitively know how to handle situations that baffled us, but there are steps to be climbed befor we get to them. In order for someone to sucker me, I am generally looking for something for free or the "easier, softer way" out. In my experience both give me nothing but trouble. If I point a finger at someone, three point back at me. Through the years each time I felt overwhelmed, I listened to the problems of others, and thanked God I didn't have them. My own problems seemed so small in comparison. Just keep attending meedings, bring the body and the mind will follow. This I was told and can testify in my life, it is true. Each time I set expectations on another, I got messed up. I am in the program that teaches I can, and must, change me. The definition of insanity I have been taught is "doing the same thing, the same way, and expecting different results." I was also repeatedly told to pray for those I had a resentment against and though I didn't want to, when I did it, my resentments vanished. Love, believe in yourself as well as others and keep putting one foot in front of the other. May God hold you, as he has me, in the palm of his hand and continue to put people and examples, good and bad in front of you as you trudge the happy road of recovery. No road is all flat, there are always a few bumps, which generally wake the driver up to hazardous road conditions. God bless, and as Lincoln said "most people are as happy as they choose to be." I can only speak for myself, and while I gagged in my early days, I can now say with much conviction, I AM GRATEFULL BE AN ALCOHOLIC. sincerely, Door from Illinois


Member: deb
Location: NW
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 3:55:15 AM

Comments

Hi I`m deb, an alcoholic w/9months sobriety. Someone asked what the 13th step is. It`s when someone takes advantage of an alcoholic who is vulnerable. (((Sharon))) you`ve done the right thing by asking for help. Keep asking till you find it. Go to another meeting and ask for help, or tell a doctor or a counselor or a friend. When I decided I wanted to stop drinking I told a friend who told me to tell my doctor (honestly) who told me to get counseling, that led to AA. I am so glad I was honest, it was such a relief. When I was drinking I couldn`t imagine a life without alcohol. It`s not only possible but so much better than drinking, and cool to live without deception. Who knew? not me, 10 months ago. (((Jan))) I`ve seen several people slip and when they come to meetings they are welcomed back with love and compassion. Don`t beat yourself up, strive for progress, not perfection. w/love, deb


Member: deb
Location: NW
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 4:21:43 AM

Comments

Sorry to post again, but if you`re still drinking, you might want to visit the 12X12 meeting, about Step 1. Pretty inspiring. Thanks, deb


Member: Jan S
Location: Australia
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 6:28:46 AM

Comments

Jan, Alcoholic, I would say ask an AA member. I asked a friend, rather told a friend I thought I was an alcoholic. His advice to me, as I lay crying on my bed, was to say, "Just don't drink spirits - you'll be OK" - someone who cared about me. I"m sure some of you will understand. This was someone who really did care about me. Get yourself to an AA meeting. Best wishes, Jan


Member: Granny S.
Location: Marthasvineyard
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 9:23:40 AM

Comments

I agree with all the positive constructive responses I have read here on both subject which I too think are as interelated as everything turns out to be, I feel, in dealing with our alcoholism through AA. In the 27 years I have been in the program [all of it on this small island] I have not had any bad experiences with deceit directed at me to rip me off in any way but I have had the problem of a sponsee not being able to be honest about their alcohol and drug abuse which is frustrating when you care about their well being and hope for their recovery. I liked what Door C had to say about AA being a program of Truth . It also impressed me that it says in the 12 and 12 book that alcohol and drug abuse is a symptom of the underlying "soul sickness" and the inability to "deal with life on life's terms" as has been said. Being a power of example by sharing at meetings the progress of our own healing is a form of 12th step work we can all do. To express how you are feeling here, too, opening up and ending the chronic, classic isolation we all suffer from is an example of "having the courage to change the things we can". I have always believed what I heard at many meetings:"You are just as sick as you are secretive". The willingness to share what was really going on with me was a change that was taking a risk in my poor feverish mind and that took courage. I had been out there for 30 years so to try another way of life even when it held out some hope took a certain amount of courage for such aHUGE change in attitude. I heard in one of my first meetings that A SPIRITUAL AWAKENING IS SIMPLY A CHANGE OF ATTITUDE. Don't give up. You are worth more than that. Don't throw yourself away.


Member: Jean-Claude T.
Location: Belgium
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 9:41:03 AM

Comments

My name is JC and Iím an alcoholic.

Thanks for the topic, Mark.

There surely are deceptive people in this program. Am I not sometimes one of them for somebody else? I am no saint, Iím a drunk who could stop and stayed stop with the help of AA and my HP. Sometimes my old behaviours and thoughts come back and I may not be a "good AA" as far as this term has a meaning. Tolerance and accepting people as they are is part of my program. One thing is certain, though, Iíve met many more caring and supporting people in AA than deceptive ones. The positive far more outweights the negative.

Jan S., Iíve seen lots of great people in AA with good sobriety now who did need more than one try. Iíve seen other people who failed and didnít come back and died in alcohol. We are no judges, we are only here to help you with our experience, strength and hope. Youíre not a failure, do what you have to do in order to save your life. Godbless.

Thanks for letting me share. jctoller@hotmail.com / ICQ 36308407


Member: sunny s
Location: New Bedford, Mass
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 11:26:43 AM

Comments

Just a quick note, around here, the 13th step is "I'll make you feel better with less work than the 12 steps when you have sex with me." It's also sometimes called the step that kills hope.


Member: Dennis M.
Location: Seattle area
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 2:41:32 PM

Comments

My name is Dennis, and I am an alcoholic.

Lets see, did anyone else ever think that the Serenity Prayer should have said something like; "change the things I can't accept?" I think thats how I read it when I first got to the program. I know now that it does take plenty of courage to take responsibility and change myself. It is not fun, but whats the alternative? My life was horrible when I arrived, so anything I did that was different from before, had to be an improvement. Of course it all hinged on staying sober. As for Mark's topic regarding deceptive people, I have always believed that AA was the perfect place for a predator to prey. Especially if the prey is newly sober. I have found that these types of people usually wash themselves out relatively quickly. It is usually very obvious that they are at the meeting for something other than recovery, and they give themselves away over and over if you watch them. But isn't it interesting that we "con artists" seem to be the easiest ones to con at times. It is laughable to me that we think so highly of our ability to spot a game, but we still fall into the bullshit from time to time. The only thing I know today is that if I do the right thing and keep my side of the street clean, things have a way of working out just fine. I have also found that a private conversation with a user and abuser usually takes care of the problem. Thank you for allowing me to share in the meeting.


Member: Laila
Location: Sunny  and warm Turku
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 3:39:44 PM

Comments

Hi everyone, I'm Laila, alcoholic and codependent.

One day at a time, I try not to let assholes rent space in my head. That's my way of dealing with deceptive people in the program (and outside it too).

Everybody have a good day! Love, Laila email oct296@hotmail.com


Member: anonymous
Location:
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 4:34:49 PM

Comments

"Do the steps" and you'll have a spiritual awakeining, simple as A B C... but you can't give away what you don't have. Now tell me, is it in the hand of these steps to pass out a spirit? "Do the footwork" and you'll be rewarded... but is this God's plan of salvation? When you turn to God, must you not also turn to his plan, his design, his precepts? I have seen this deciete, and I know one canst not climb up some other way. The world is such that if your sober, it will drive you to drink, and if your drunk it will drive you to soberiety. In this no win situation we can not afford to decieve ourselves, or be led astray by others. If it's simply to quit drinking we are in AA then as my Dad used to say, "you don't know what's good". Take heed therefore that the big book is not another gospel to you. For even if an angel from heaven preach another gospel to you than the bible, "let him be accursed" for it is so written. Let us not be surprised then when our efforts fail, and above all let us not lie against the truth and so decieve others in this all important matter.


Member: Jason C
Location: Calumet City, IL
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 4:52:30 PM

Comments

Hello My name is Jason and I am an real Alcoholic, Well Mark deceptive people are onyl hurting themselves and if you let them rent space in your mind then they will send you back out there and then they are the winners.

The way I deal with these people is to pray for them that they can understand the true meaning of Live and Let Live. God gave us this program to help us recover from alcohol and if someone uses it for a negative purpose than god will take care of that situation. So I just continue to grow regardless of others around me and then my HP rewards me with the promises. Remember Continue to take your personal inventory and not other peoples inventory. When we take other peoples inventory then we have a character defect that we need to fix. I found the only way to get sobriety and keep it is to follow this program and use all the tools provided. There is no shortcut and you cant get angry at someone else because they are not doing what they are suppose to do. As long as Jason is doing what Jason is suppose to do all will be well, remember this is a selffish program and by helping yourself and following this program thouroughly, you will autamatically be helping others to recover and a sober way of living is all you seek.


Member: Sharon
Location: Ma
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 6:57:27 PM

Comments

Hi again To (((Deb))) Thank you for the consideration I just moved here and I don't want people to get the wrong impression of me. I should tell you I am a 34 year old mother of 2 with a great husband and life, I just can't seem to kick this thing., but it is killing me. (((Mary K))) I live very close to you and you seem to have been on this site for a while. I am kinda curious were you go to meetings and if you are looking for a travel companion. I must tell you I have only been to a few meetings in marion but I need to do something. let me know if you are intersted. Maybe we could meet near the Middleboro rotary.


Member: JimB.
Location: Roi Namur, RMI
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 7:51:36 PM

Comments

JimB Happy to know I'm alcholic and grateful to be sober today. Good topic and great sharing by most of you folks except the usual wise acres. For me today the program offers me choices. I will from time to time meet deceptive people both in and out of the program. Today I have the choice as to how I handle these people. The program tells us "To Thine Ownself Be True" and to that extent if I feel I'm not being dealt with honestly it is up to me to either let the other person know that I will not co-sign their B.S. or I can simply choose not to have any further dealings with this particular individual. We are not saints so learning to deal with difficult people is something that we each have to learn on our own level. Thanks JimB.


Member: Ray R.
Location: Jacksonville Fl.
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 8:30:28 PM

Comments

It occurs to me that a definition of "deceit" is appropriate since what is deemed deceitful must vary from one to the other. Is it deceitful to profess spirituality and god-centered living while in real life making a living selling cars, or real estate? Some would answer yes. I have learned to smile about certain AA people like the guy who preys on newcomer women, and the other who ego strokes himself by lecturing about sobriety like he has the one true blueprint, or the "old timer" who lays in wait for a couple of others to share before he critiques and says what would be the proper thing to do, and so forth. Even with my shortcomings, others shortcomings, and even the shortcomings of the program itself, i am still grateful for my sobriety and recognize the key role AA has played in this new life of mine.


Member: tonydaduck
Location: daduckpond
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 10:25:40 PM

Comments

wow! 2 hours withaut a post! what's happening here?


Member: Roy S.
Location:
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 11:30:59 PM

Comments

I agree with several of those who have said that deceitful people are in all walks of life, and that you just have to learn how to spot them and either deal with them or avoid them. Part of the "joy" of sobriety is that you have to deal with people like this, instead of drinking and laughing with them. It is by no means easy, but I would not trade dealing with those kinds of people for my sobriety. I simply pray alot and ask God to help me in my efforts. Thanks for letting me share.


Member: Ecliptick
Location: canada
Date: 5/17/00
Time: 11:33:26 PM

Comments

Hello I'm Ecliptick an alcoholic

People hurt others because they themself have been hurt at one time or another! So if we ALL stop hurting others we would all get along! I know this is far fetch but it helps to remind people how it feels to get hurt so that they can think twice before they DECEIVE somebody!

I've been sobber for 1 day now! Take care all!


Member: Pattie W
Location: Garberville, CA
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 12:45:40 AM

Comments

Hi, I am Pattie alcoholic. First time on an aa chat site. I just returned home from my home group and the topic was 8th step. So right now that's where my head is at. I live in a pretty rural area and our meetings average 15 to 20 or so people so I have not encountered much deceptivness. Some BS for sure so maybe that's the same. It's a wary feeling I get so I am pleasant/polite but that's as far as they get in. I've worked hard over the years in my sobriety and there's no room in it for deceptive people. One of the gifts I've been given in alcoholics anonymous is to be honest. If I feel someone is being deceptive/or full of BS I can gently let them know what I see going on with them. They may not even know they're being deceptive. We all know how denial works! Thanks for letting me share, this was fun. I'll keep coming back!


Member: Pattie W
Location: Garberville, CA
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 12:45:46 AM

Comments

Hi, I am Pattie alcoholic. First time on an aa chat site. I just returned home from my home group and the topic was 8th step. So right now that's where my head is at. I live in a pretty rural area and our meetings average 15 to 20 or so people so I have not encountered much deceptivness. Some BS for sure so maybe that's the same. It's a wary feeling I get so I am pleasant/polite but that's as far as they get in. I've worked hard over the years in my sobriety and there's no room in it for deceptive people. One of the gifts I've been given in alcoholics anonymous is to be honest. If I feel someone is being deceptive/or full of BS I can gently let them know what I see going on with them. They may not even know they're being deceptive. We all know how denial works! Thanks for letting me share, this was fun. I'll keep coming back!


Member: Pattie W.
Location: Garberville, Ca
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 12:49:43 AM

Comments

OOPS! Sorry about the double message. New at this!


Member: Arlene
Location: Washington
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 12:50:38 AM

Comments

Yes there are deceptive people everywhere, Such is life, but please do not use that as an excuse to drop out of this program. perhaps the answer is as simple as going to a different meeting."if you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it...." The people that are really trying their best to stay sober and to help others far out number the ones that arent. Stick with the winners.


Member: ds
Location: nw
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 2:42:10 AM

Comments

dwight alcoholic,i here alot of people in the program tell newcomers dont get into a relationship,,,, dont steal, dont lie, dont 13 step, dont drink,,, ya like i or anyone else that hasnt worked the steps has the power to do the steps are where i found power to deal with life, and i was able to see the truth about myself and the world around me. i say go ahead get it to a relationship do what you know how to do, like very many of us couldnt do it when we first came in. coupled with this get a spouncer and work the steps


Member: ds
Location: nw
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 2:53:23 AM

Comments

dwight alcoholic,i here alot of people in the program tell newcomers dont get into a relationship,,,, dont steal, dont lie, dont 13 step, dont drink,,, ya like i or anyone else that hasnt worked the steps has the power to do the steps are where i found power to deal with life, and i was able to see the truth about myself and the world around me. i say go ahead get it to a relationship do what you know how to do, like very many of us couldnt do it when we first came in. coupled with this get a spouncer and work the steps


Member: Tylene
Location: Ohio
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 3:07:31 AM

Comments

I've been taught that I have to look at the person and were there at in the program. I also have to watch that I wouldn't use this as an excuse to stay away from meeting. Especailly when I need them. Go to meeting and watch people see if they walk the talk and by that I mean if they are living it outside in their personal lives. When we first come in were still in a fog and it takes a while to think straight so find somebody your comfortable with and hang around them and see if things don't change. I think the courage to change started when I started to work the steps to the best of my ability. That's when I started to take an honet look at myself. Thats when I started to grow and change. Remeber it took time to get us this way and it will take time to undo.


Member: Shelli
Location: N.CA
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 6:07:00 AM

Comments

Hi Mark,

I believe you picked the topic of how to deal with deceptive people in the program. Personally I deal with them the same way I do with deceptive people outside the program, and that is with patience and tolerance, and the understanding that they are not well people and have a lot of work to do on themselves, at least if there in the program and even attempting to work it at all they will eventually come to the 9th step and owe you an amends of some sort if they are truely trying to take advantage of you. Now people outside the program are a whole different story, I simply stere clear for my own well being. One example being, when I sold my resturaunt I got took to the cleaners, to the tune of $30,000, and because a good chunk of our agreement was a simple handshake I had no one to blame but myself, but to this day I am alot more careful about who and how I do business, my steps have helped me to realize that some people are simply just not nice people and if I stick my neck out it is going to get lopped off, simple as that.

I tend to find that most the people in the program whom are dishonest are more dishonest and disceptive with themselves, not so much others, and others choose to do dishonest behavors yet do not intend on hurting those around them, for instance in my fellowship an awful lot of people who claim to be sober and living a sober program grow pot and make a major living with it yet in there denial they do not see how it hurts those around them. Then we see newcomers coming into the rooms who believe once you get sober you shouldn't smoke pot or do drugs which of course is true considering its hard to be sober and stoned at the same time, and then they see these people who grow and really question the ethics of the program as a whole not relizing it has nothing to do with program it is the individual who chooses to live this sorted lifestyle, but then we start getting into outside issues which raise the roof and the next thing you know someones feelings are hurt and then you think you've been lied to and on and on.

The way I look at it is we are all on our own level of recovery and we all work at our own pace on our own issues, personally the only deceptfull thing that was ever done to me in recovery was done to me by my own husband and I am not going to go there right now, but later I realized it had nothing at all to do with me, it was all about him and his Ego, yet I was hurt as a result of his deceptions, we are all sick or we would not be here, but I do know one thing at least the people in the rooms are trying to stay sober and get somewhat of a grip on there behaviors even if not a good one, those people outside the rooms of recovery would cut your throat for a dime if they thought they could get away with it, there intent is intentional unlike a lot of folks in the rooms who have to learn how not to hussle but it all takes time. Recovery is a proccess no matter what we want to be like none of us are angles. Lots of Luck to you sir I sure hope you stick around and give your self some time for recovery. But no matter what you do JUST DON'T DRINK and everything else will eventually fall into place. Kind of like a puzzle. One day at a time. At least in the rooms you know what your dealing with and basically it is the disease of Alcholism.


Member: Fred M
Location: MD
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 7:02:17 AM

Comments

I'm Fred and I'm and alcoholic, sober today by the grace of God.

//TO: Jan S// At my home meeting, we give chips for varying lengths of sobriety. It seems to me that the people who get the loudest applause when receiving their chips are those who come back and pick up their "first 24-hours" chip. They are welcomed back to the fold with love and compassion. It occured to me when I read your post that a teacher said, "Let the person who is without sin cast the first stone." All of us have things we wish we hadn't done. I had a slip before I was ready to quit. Come on back, we love you.

Deception in AA: If alcoholism strikes people from all walks of life, all social strata, and all backgrounds, why are we surprized to find deceptive people in our midst? Add in the games we learned to play to hide our disease, most of us for many years, and we are by definition deceptive. AA gives us a chance to strive for honesty and righteousness. It doesn't guarantee we all arrive there immediately. I agree with the previous posts that advised going slow in forming new relationships in AA, gravitate toward the winners, and maintain some distance until people have earned your trust. Thanks for letting me share. Love, Fred


Member: Deb K
Location: West Kootenays
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 11:04:12 AM

Comments

Deb K. and I am an alcoholic. I came in through Alanon and was 13th stepped by an AA'er. I held that against AA until I learned that "principals before personalities" was MY objective. I had a wonderful sponsor that explained to me that there were some sicker than others and that one or two members were not the AA program. There is the program and there are people that work that program. It was up to me to find people that work the program the way I would like to see and the life that I would like to have and to ask and trust my HP to guide me in those decisions.I learned through that sponsor that all the choices were up to me, and how I handled those choices as well. I like what a person said before me about casting the first stone. If I am spending time analyzing someone else and their motives, it is taking away the time that I should be seeing and working on myself. I have heard that what I do not like about someone else is usually an inkling of what is going on in my skin, that people are mirrors of what is going on for us. If we are surrounded by ughly, it is usually because we are there, if we are surounded by beauty; we are there...it all comes down to our choice.IMHO. I thank my HP that I have a life and that through my HP that the program is available to those that want it. Wish you all another 24.


Member: Sidney Z.
Location: Tulsa,Oklahoma
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 11:44:27 AM

Comments

Dont drink todaay

dont 13 step

dont hang wit da losers

dont be mean to peepol

dont choose a bad sponser

dont miss meetings

dont drink today


Member: Edie R
Location: S.C.
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 12:32:37 PM

Comments

Edie,I'm an alcoholic. I don't know of any deceptive people here in AA. I am sure that there may be some but I don't know it. Maybe I'm blind to the fact or maybe I choose not to see. All I know is that they are not affecting me or my sobriety so they are really none of my business. I only work on Edie and I have choices and I choose not to let people take advantage of me today. I love people in AA and for some reason I always have loved them, maybe it is because they helped to save my life. I try to stay focused on the positive. Thanks, Edie


Member: DonF
Location: NH
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 1:13:57 PM

Comments

Don, recovering alky, To Michelle (5/15 9:25 pm): God definitely loves you, and hates NOBODY. He has a plan for our lives. He does hate sin (or in the semantics of the program, "character defects", mainly drunkenness). AA is a way to come to a spiritual understanding of a Higher Power that is GOOD, and wants us to save our ass. Then we may become interested in even greater spiritual understanding.

And on this topic, as MaryK advises (5/16 5:41pm), when it comes to hiring somebody or buying something in the halls, you stand the chance of letting "issues of property and prestige" conflict with our primary goals. Tradition 6.


Member: JL Gray
Location: The Beach, California
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 2:08:30 PM

Comments

JL here. Deceptive alcoholic. I was wondering about this topic. I could not point to any deceptions that I have uncovered in my home group. That is my only frame of reference. I go meetings out of town when I travel, but for the most part I have been blessed with being oblivious as a newcomer. I've been around the block, so I am not at all worried about deceitfulness in others. YET! I am sure I have a lot to learn in AA. My own deceptions are what's concerning me now. I have been coming to AA for almost 6 months now. I got some sobriety at first then had a slip. I raised my hand as a newcomer again and everone asked me "what happened?" I hung in there and got five weeks. No more newcomer. Then I slipped again and again. What's wrong with me? I never stopped going to meetings, I just didn't raise my hand anymore as a newcomer. I don't feel like I am a newcomer, even though my sobriety is a tenuous thing. Am I deceiveing those in the program? No one, not even my sponsor asks how long I've been sober. If asked, I will proudly say 17 days. Thanks for getting me to think and letting me share.


Member: Andy H
Location: ENGLAND
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 3:30:04 PM

Comments

Hi, Andy, alcoholic, well MICHELLE, I know where your at cos that's where I am too, but I know one day at a time this is going to pass, I've been sober now for about six months, thank God. I managed to find the strength to get back on the beach after six and a half years back out there,the last two and a half I wanted back but had to hurt enough to pocket my pride, I had been sober four years when I turned back to sea and the stormy waters of active ism, now as I said I'm on the beach and God didn't stop me from drowning to kick me to death on the beach as the saying goes! Deceptive people and the courage to change the things I can I think link into each other, I've known or been with people in this fellowship whose idea of sobriety and honesty don't feel good to me, however I do pray for them (when they piss me off), you see I can't change them only me with some help from my friends and a lot of help from God,(as I understand him, her or it) one day these persons can and will change but when the time is right for them and them alone. I've been sober about six months now and have reviewed what happened seven years ago, I allowed others to rent room in my head, I forgot where I came from (stopped doing service), didn't have a sponsor as I'd sacked him after he thirteen stepped a new member, became a nomad without a home group, got recovered (sanity) mixed up with recovered (can drink like a gentleman) well thats a laugh anyway, now!. So in a nice greek taverna, a coctail appeared before me, compliments of the house, well! one wouldn't hurt? that one drink lasted six and a half years, deceptive people? the great deceiver is my shadow side and his name is John Barleycorn. What a relief to be home, back on the beach and moving towards the sunlight one day at a time, but I must remember this when, like now when I could kill for a drink! next time I may not get back(I hope there isn't a next time) but I can get on my pity pot and survey the havoc, debts and hurt, that I have caused and think well a drink would relieve the pain but it won't, not today anyway. If anyone would like an AA penpal I'll put my e-mail address down after I've read the instructions to see if I can, (typical alkie, instructions second!)


Member: John B.
Location: Longmont,Co.
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 4:28:50 PM

Comments

John true alkie, I agree with several of you sober souls who have posted that there are deceitful people are in all walks of life, and we have to learn how to spot them and either deal with them or avoid them. When looking at my character defects and how I interacted with others, I learn that I also wore several faces. The best thing for me is being able to spot this about my self and become my true self. I no longer had the have all the right answers and be everything to everyone. Wow what a freedom. But when I see this in someone else I place personalities before principles. Unless I see that person effecting someone who has trouble spotting this. Then I speak to the person one on one. And not in a defensive manner but in a positive way so that they understand that we are here to help each other and not cause any further damage. Thanks for letting me share.


Member: Marsha S.
Location: Missouri
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 4:42:27 PM

Comments

Hi! I'm Marsha and i am an alcoholic. Mark, I know exactly how you feel. My ex-boyfriend was the deceptive one. I just joined aa and he did step 13 with another female member (while we were together and before i started the program) and i can not (at least right now) go to meetings in my hometown. I had a very hard time joining aa for the simple fact that he and her ruined my concept and belief that the program was to help and be honest. I thought it was supposed to be an honest program. Though I've just begun my long journey, I do thank them, because if it weren't for their co-dependant relationship, I would be the one in it with him, and I believe that through working my steps and really working on me, by myself, I will be all the stronger. I have found many great and wonderful people in aa and I am thankful that it is there for me. I have just begun this program and have learned alot, want to learn so much more and wnat to never, ever stop learning. But thanks, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who wondered about "getting screwed" by someone in the aa program. Now I know what to watch for. I have to remember it's a tool and it was put there for me to use, not abuse.


Member: John G.                  
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 4:44:55 PM

Comments

Hi,

My name is John and I have completed a 28 day recovery program and have re discovered the inter net. Have enjoyed your comments and will read them often. Stay happy!!!!!!!!!


Member: GREG G.
Location: KENNEWICK, WA
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 5:12:55 PM

Comments


Member: Andy H
Location: ENGLAND
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 5:20:12 PM

Comments

Pen Pals, can write me, Andy_H001@hotmail.com. thanks


Member: GREGG G.
Location: KENNEWICK, WA
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 7:49:59 PM

Comments

KEEP COMING BACK, IT WORKS IF YOU WORK IT.


Member: MaryJ
Location: Seattle
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 7:59:44 PM

Comments

HI, I'm Mary and an alcoholic. Deceptive people in AA? We are of course, but we are trying to become honest with our selves and with others. Some of the previous posts listed all the screwed up behavior some of us exhibited before and during the program. I think it is part of the process. Of course I also agree that if the meetings you are going to continue to be all in that vein, then try a new one. I am fortunate to be in an area that has a wide diversity. I am also fortunate that I can log on to a meeting when I want to. Stay healthy and happy and safe over the weekend.


Member: Corinne
Location: Camino
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 8:43:55 PM

Comments

'Evenin' ((DMers))!! Corinne, Alcoholic here, there & nowhere in particular!!

Good topic, Mark. Deceptive people exist in every facet of life and it was naive of me to think I would not find any when I arrived in AA. Because I was raised in an Alcoholic home, I also developed that good ol' Codependency, and learned to project my thoughts, feelings and beliefs onto others. What happened was that I thought everyone who was in AA was here for the same reasons, and was working the program the same way I was. WRONG! I had to face that fact early in my first year (my first time around in 1986) when several folks went out and got drunk again, and when I learned that the AA guy I was dating was seeing his secretary and planned to marry her, even after I moved 45 miles to live closer to him! He was 6 years sober and I thought that sort of thing shouldn't happen! He should've been more honest!

What I had to face was that not everyone grows at the same rate of speed, and I had to learn how to accept that fact. I have met the same sort of deceitful people in church, and, by the way, not all hypocrites exist only in the churches - we have our hypocrites in AA, too! Duh! It's all about awareness and acceptance, and being able to see these things that we don't like in others, and then striving to make sure we don't behave in ways that repulse us. The only person I can do anything about is myself. The laws of the universal will catch up to take care of folks who hurt us. And it's none of my business if I never get to see that happen. I need only take care of living my own life in tune with what I believe my HP would want. And for me, that does not include being deceiptful or manipulative, anymore. I tried that far too long while drinking and it made life so unmanageable. Life doesn't have to be so hard - and it only is, if I make it that way!


Member: King B>
Location: Western California
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 10:49:24 PM

Comments

Mark, Wow, talk about being powerless. and to sharon an admitted alcoholic still drinking. sounds like step two to me.Stay here and you will understand what we mean. Good luck and good night. P.S sorry for the crosstalk.


Member: Toddy N.
Location: Firey New Mexico
Date: 5/18/00
Time: 11:39:31 PM

Comments

Hi everyone, my name is Toddy and I'm an alcoholic. I remember a guy in the program that I had great respect for when I was a newcomer, he had all the steps memorized, the promises, etc. He really talked the talk. Then, about 4 yrs. sober for me I went to dinner with his wife and she told me that he'd been 13th stepping quite a few newcomer females, she was looking into divorce! I couldn't believe that this guy was so judgmental and seemed to live such a strong program could have been lying all that time, but he was. I guess some people never get over being devious! I am starting a new job, been there 8 days so far and am loving it. I quit my old job of 9 years because I found out that my boss (also my best friend) had been cheating me out of a lot of money. I trusted her, never thought she would cheat me, but lo and behold she did. I am so lucky to have A.A. and all that it's taught me. I was terribly hurt for a couple of days but got through that and am now feeling peace again. I said the Serenity Prayer over and over and it worked for me. I hate to think how I would have reacted had I still been drinking. So there are 2 instances where I've been screwed since becoming sober, and I've been able to deal with them (and MANY others) with tolerance and patience. I have actually prayed for people that have done me wrong, asked that they be shown their ways are wrong, but that's for God to do, not me. I love the A.A. way of life, those of you who are still new to this, hang in there because just because your life feels boring without the booze right now you'll find out how wonderful and full it can be. I was an alcoholic who lived in chaos all the time and thrived on it, so at a few months sober I got really bored and wasn't sure I liked that. Now my life is anything but boring but it's so-o good!! No kidding, I'm not trying to deceive anybody. What you're going through happens to many of us but it'll get better soon. PLEASE keep coming back. See ya!


Member: 13 stepper
Location: l.a.
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 12:52:25 AM

Comments

hi jackie


Member: anonymous
Location:
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 11:49:36 AM

Comments

Hi everyone. I was just thinking about how I used to be as an active alcoholic. I was everything everyone mentioned. A liar, very judgemental, never stood up for myself or anyone else. I think they call that a fence sitter. Always afraid to take a stand, or confront anyone. So I would just jump on the bandwagon. If people were gossiping, I would listen and join in. Character assination. When I came into the program, I learned a long time ago that just because we are not drinking doesn't mean this all stops. When I was new in recovery, this used to shake me so much because I did run into this and still do at times. However I have a wonderful support group, sponsor, meditation books that constantly remind me to keep the focus on myself, stick with the winners, go to meetings, work the steps, pray for the people you may have resentments against, treat others the way you would like to be treated. All these things help. These are all things that people in the program have taught me. If I let things like this prevent me from going to meetings, then I will definately suffer. I was also told the AA program does not fail. People fail. We are all human. That's why the fourth and tenth steps are there. Also, through working the program and developing a little self-respect, It just doesn't bother me as much anymore. Not everyone is going to like me and I can't please everyone. However, I have to look at the glass as being half full. Recovery has given me a new chance at life and I owe it all to AA. Most all the people I've met on this journey have been wonderful teachers and friends. I couldn't learn this anywhere else. Thanks for the topic. It's givin me something to think about.


Member: Chris S.
Location: Gratitude
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 11:55:10 AM

Comments

Chris S. I am an alcoholic. I think that both of these topics go together. Mark, you are expeiencing fear, fear of what others say, think, and do, to you or about you. This is natural, as humans we want to be appreciated and respected. The first step to courage to change is to accept the things you can't change, that is everyone else. but you have the power to change your attitude. To quote Shakespear," You have not half the power to hurt me as I have to be hurt." What this means to me is that whatever someone does to, or says about me, I am responsible for my own feelings, if I get angry, or fearful, or resentful, or prideful, it is because I choose to feel this way, no one can 'make' me feel anything. The courage to change, then, lies in putting faith in my higher power and turning these emotions over to that power, and not to depend on others for my happiness, that is putting unreasonable demands upon them. My happiness is simply a by-product of right living, and so long as I am honest, with me, with you, and with God, what then do I have to fear? The next key to change is forgiveness, in my past I always dreamed of "getting even" obsessed, is more the word for it, so much so that I could not find relief until I got revenge, I was never satisfied with the results, I was always unhappy, restless, irritable, and discontent. It wasn't until I learned how to forgive, others, myself, and God, that I began to get some peace of mind. Then there is acceptance, I must accept myself as I am today, good and bad, and I must accept others as they are today, good and bad. We are on this spiritual journey, some are farther along, and some are just beginning, the prevelance of our character defects are the mile markers of this journey, so when I run across those who are deceptive, I try to think of them as lying to themselves, I was very good at that. If I see that they are deceptive, they are not lying to me, because I see the truth, therefore they are lying to themself. The courage to change, then, is my attitude, I must look upon them with compassion, for they are hurting, I must pray for them, that they be guided along this dark stretch of their journey, and then I must pray for the courage and the willingness to help them in anyway that God sees fit. I brought alot of 'baggage' with me when I started this journey, people in the fellowship have helped me to let go of much of it, but there is still much I hold on to, and I pray that I am willing to let others help me to let go, as I am willing to help others. Mark, I know your fear, I know the pain of being hurt, and have found that the pain is a result of expectations I placed on those that hurt me. None of these things are new ideas, they have all been taught to me at the tables of AA rooms. Keep coming back, stay with it, work the program to the best of your ability, and you will know serenity, peace of mind, and confidence in the future!


Member: Jay
Location: Missouri
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 2:07:35 PM

Comments

I want to say that all that nice talk about turning emotions over to some "non-tangible" power is a nice thought but thats the problem Chris S, it is just that, a nice thought! How about some action, and I don't mean becoming a door mat to destructive, deceptive people. How about walking away Mark and working on finding people who you can put some trust in. I gotta say that this program has taught me lots but I am very tired of hearing people in this program promote self denial and saint like behavior. I aint no saint and I dont want to be either. A perfect example of this "saint like" promotion is acceptance, I hear the line "I just have to accept and let it go." A pretty self defeating statement I think. A much better saying that my sponsor recently quoted......

"Acceptance does not mean "giving up. Acceptance means understanding then doing something about it."

Not such a self defeating, demeaning way of looking at it is it!

Get over trying to reach sainthood people! It will never happen. Liars, cheaters, theives and the like exist and no where does it say we have to like or accept people like that in our lives. So Mark, try to understand that fact. They are out there and maybe your action is to walk away from such people. Try it, it works better than trying to reach sainthood!


Member: John B
Location: Boden, Sweden
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 4:04:48 PM

Comments

I am John B from nothern Sweden.(There seems to be a lot of Johns around at this meeting)

((Jay)) - I like your attitude: To act and not only react. I used to have trouble with the AA program as I understood it because it made me able to put up with almost anything. I lived in a destructive relationship (after becoming sober) for five years taking all the blame on me and trying to change before I got the wisdom and courage to break up.


Member: k1
Location: south dakota
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 5:09:50 PM

Comments

my name is k and i'm an alcoholic.

hello everyone, i have been reading all the good things everyone has had to say about the program. on the topic of deceptive people, i tend to be one who is overly cautious and from that frame, you tend to be seen as isolative and tend to not meet as many people. i think what is needed is a balance between being overly cautions and not being cautious enough. i have had my anonymity broken early in my recovery and later in my recovery. early on it was kind of eye opening, like the time you come off your "pink cloud" after you get out of treatment. more recently after i have had a few twenty four ours, i was a little angry but took into consideration the person's own "sickness." like it says in the big book, others in the program are sick, so you should treat the person as if her were a sick person, because he/she is (or maybe it was in the 12/12).

its been a couple weeks since my last meeting, and its been good to read and "recharge" my batteries somewhat. there is nothing like a "real meeting"

thank you for letting me contribute.


Member: Denise l S
Location: New York
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 5:34:39 PM

Comments

Good Day everyone. I am an alcoholic.My name is Denise. I at one point had over 700 days sober but i fell again and created a really big mess in my life and for my family. The deceptive people in life only see what they require what they need and I feel that deception is a disease itself. I recently had several people very close to me (knowing my situation) help in creating the situation which finally brought me to my giving up and letting go of the sobriety that I wanted soo much. I cannot blame them for my picking up the drink but I can blame them for the deception that put me into the dispare and confussion which faltered my belief in myself.I believe that my lord is with me and my family to carry us through this time of turmoil and that he will be there to judge those who do the deceiving. This I give to him. The true of who I am will always be inside me.I know that when I am judged my God will be merciful. Everyday is a new one and each person a new soul I cannot be afraid of people but I can choose the souls I keep around me.

Thank you for letting me share


Member: brent a
Location: ft.vermilion AB,canada
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 7:03:46 PM

Comments

hello everyone,my name is brent and I am an alcoholic and an addict, this is my first time,I am very grateful for this web page because I currently am working up in northern Alberta where there are no meetings.I can find this very hard,so this is where I need the courage to pick up the phone more often and talk to my sponsor,or like what I am doing right know.On the topic I do not have to much to say I was lucky and found an excellent sponsor right away,which I am so grateful for. I like what Denise 1s said about picking people for my friends.As I get more healthy, I pick more healthy friends! I do not have to much more to say ,so God bless.. until then.

thank-you


Member: Gillette E.
Location: Oakland CA
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 10:06:31 PM

Comments

Hello, my name is Gillette and I am an alcoholic. This is an interesting topic. We don't hear much in meetings about deceptive people but talk about it a lot outside meetings. The kindest, most giving, loving people I have ever known are members, active members, of AA. The quality of the people I have met and known in AA is much higher than the people who I was hanging about with before AA. I often pray for my former friends and wish they could have the community of love and service we have. But there are still sick people in or around AA. Discussing questionable members with other members is a good idea. This is not gossip but rather exchanging information, facts. The only thing you can do about the 13th stepper hitting on newcomers is talk to the newcomer and tell him or her the 13th steppers history. If someone you know has a history of taking money, speak up when he or she volunteers to be treasurer. A women recently made off with $6,000 of group money who had a history of stealilng in sobriety. I knew her history but I did not know she was treasurer of a group (that I do not attend). But I did speak up when I got word of what was going on. If I have doubts about somebody in the program, I ask around. If someone is acting out, it is rarely the first time, and people who have been around a while will know about it. We pray for these people but we do not date them (date rape happens rarely but it does in AA) or give them money or housing or other material things. That is not good for us or for them. They have every right to be members of AA and many come back to make amends. But the other members have every right to get the facts and act with knowlege. Keep coming back regardless of the pranks you sometimes see in the rooms. If I let the guy drive me out who tried to take me for two thousand dollars six years ago, I'd be drunk, or dead, today.


Member: Rocco
Location: N.Y.
Date: 5/19/00
Time: 10:54:49 PM

Comments

Hello everyone my name is Rocco and I am an alcoholic. Mark this is as good a topic as any.What I do to weed out the bullshitters is look them dead in the eyes while I think they are in full B.S.mode. That sends about 50% into a tail spin,they cant handle it. The other 50% are what me and my partner at work call Jedi masters.The hardcore, they could sell you a used sink even if you had two already.They live to prey on the weak minded and vulnerable with thier mind tricks.These I just politely end the conversation and walk away.Now that I am sober it is like a game to me to watch who is full of shit.I have to turn away to keep from laughing sometimes and I bet I only catch 20%.God bless us all and another 24 for all of us.


Member: Eric H
Location: Oklahoma
Date: 5/20/00
Time: 12:52:01 AM

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Member: Eric H
Location: Oklahoma
Date: 5/20/00
Time: 12:53:09 AM

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Member: Eric H
Location: Oklahoma
Date: 5/20/00
Time: 12:53:34 AM

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Member: ds
Location: nw
Date: 5/20/00
Time: 6:05:18 AM

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ds alcoholic, 13th step anyone ho uses the newcomer for there own selfish, self-centered motives i dont believe sex is the only 13th step happening out there.and dealing with the deceptive people in the program, i think most of us in the program had to go though this part of the process. we call it untreated alcoholism. get a sponcer and work the step and you will get a hole new perspective on this issue. the big book says pray for them their sick people, sometimes thats the hardest thing to do. once you start to expereancing the fredom from doing this. it will become easier to do on a regular bacus


Member: Jack F.
Location: St. Louis, MO
Date: 5/20/00
Time: 9:41:00 PM

Comments

Hi, my name is Jack and I'm an alcoholic. I've found that there are more people in AA that you can count on than not and I suppose that is as good as it gets....I would like to think that everyone practices the principles in all their affairs but it just ain't so. I've gotten burnt and felt very bad, but it's not worth dying over and that's what will happen to me if give up on the program.


Member: 13 steper
Location: in bed with a newcomer
Date: 5/21/00
Time: 3:59:34 AM

Comments

what a bunch of cry babys get over it wha


Member: John.L
Location: Newark
Date: 5/21/00
Time: 7:33:37 AM

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Morning all....My names John,and lately life has been going really well for me,,,,been chairing meetings,,speaking at begginer meetings,,am registered to go to the International Conference in Minneapolis,,,my life is definately good today,,and yes i have bad days.but there only as bad as I make them,so if you want to talk about something ,,how about the real reason we got sober and stay sober,,,cause I don't know about the rest of you ,,,but I enjoy my life today,,and good or bad ,,,no matter what or who comes down the pike,,,there maybe things in my sobriety i don't like ,,but it beats the way it was before ,,cause now i can have just a itsy bitsy control over it ,instead of hiding in a Bottle ,,,,thanks for listening John.L :>) have a safe and sober week


Member: Dan G
Location: Salem Ore
Date: 5/21/00
Time: 1:12:52 PM

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Good morning all. Still clean.Im still Dan and Im still alcoholic.One day at a time.the sun is shining today Dan


Member: stuart phillips
Location: UK  Sussex
Date: 5/21/00
Time: 1:30:02 PM

Comments

Hi my names stuart and I have just visited the Dome in London. I am an alcoholic and have been freewheeling for over a year. I love being sober and i'll keep living my life simply in order that others may simply live their lives. Have faith out there and keep putting one foot in front of the other towards a better life. Just for today.


Member: Adrian Miller
Location: Nashville NC
Date: 5/21/00
Time: 8:14:24 PM

Comments

when i'm worried about other people around the rooms, i'm not focussing on myself. Recovery is for the people who want this happy, joyous, free stuff. It works by working this program of recovery with others. Stick with the winners of AA, start the steps, and stop taking everyone elses invetory and the resentments will cease.


Member: Petra H.
Location: Abbotsford, B.C.
Date: 5/21/00
Time: 9:42:54 PM

Comments

Hi. I'm an alcoholic and my name is Petra. The topic about being screwed in A.A. Well we are a bunch of people just getting sober. Thats all AA is about. Learning by the 12 steps to Live Life on Life's terms and to find a higher power that we can turn our will and lives over to on a daily basis. Some are sicker than others and it is progress rather than perfection. What do you mean by being screwed?? Is that financially. Well we do not come here to get a job, and you should never lend money to a member of AA unless you can give it away. Being screwed, Does that mean in bed, Well that takes two to tango baby!!! Being screwed by gossip, back stabbing ect. Well like I said before we all come in here with all our old ways cause that is the only way we new how to survive. The Big Book tells us that Half measures availed us nothing... and the result was NIL until we let go absolutley. These messages tell me that I must change everything about my life. But let me tell you that took along time and still today after 12 years of sobriety I still do the things that I did when I was out there. Sometimes the ways of our old habits just rear their ugly heads... A.A. has taught me to forgive, and pray for those I resent... The serenity prayer says it all. To ACCEPT the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Thanks for my sobriety and may you all have another 24 hours...


Member: GLYNN T
Location: COLORADO \ DALLAS
Date: 5/21/00
Time: 10:04:27 PM

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HEY EVERYONE : ) MY FIRST POSTING IN SOBERSPACEAND HAD MY 18TH BIRTHDAY TODAY THANKS TO AA. READ MANY POSTINGS AND FELT ENCOURAGED TO SHARE THAT IT HAS TAKEN ME MANY MANY YEARS OF HARD KNOCKS TO FIND THAT MY HIGHER POWER WANTS ME TO HAVE AN "OPEN MIND" ABOUT THIS JOURNEY AND THAT I STILL HAVE THE CHOICE NOT TO DEPEND ON MY VERY LIMITED PERCEPTION OF THE EVENTS IN MY LIFE. BILL W KNEW THIS TO BE TRUE WHEN HE SAID "HTE DECEPTION OF OTHERS IS OFTEN ROOTED IN THE DECEPTION OF OURSELVES" TO ME MEANING THAT I OFTEN MISTAKE MY PERCEPTION OF OTHERS AND THERE BEHAVIOR FOR REALITY. 18YRS SOBER AND I FINFDING OUT THAT I KNOW LESS AND LESS BUT I KEEP GETTING HAPPIER AND HAPPIER SEE YOU ALL AT 2000 CONFERENCE YIPPEE


Member: Dave L
Location: Manitoba
Date: 5/21/00
Time: 10:52:36 PM

Comments

Enjoyed the comments. See all kinds of deceptive people when you volunteer in prisons, you just put up with it and help those who actually want help. You see the results of the AA program when people stay sober, work the step and start to live,knowing that they will never have to go back to prison. I attend a lot of differnt meeting and stick with the positive people.One thing I know that when you need help with you're sobriety and life problems the real members of the fellowship are there for you.