Member: Ed G
Location:
Date: 9/2/01
Time: 9:43:01 PM
Member: Ed G.
Location:
Date: 9/2/01
Time: 10:09:37 PM
It looks like Im the first one here! I don't see any topic established yet, so how about the importance of prayer and meditation in our daily program.
I know for me when I first got involved with this program I didn't have a clue about how to pray. I was good at bargaining with God . Everytime I got into a scrape or bind I would find myself bargaining with god to help me get out of it.
Since I began working this program I have learned to let go and let God. It is incredible the amount of freedom I can enjoy when I do this on a regular basis. I try to start my day with the daily readings from the 24 hour book. Then I take some quiet time to pray and "connect" with my higher power. I don't claim to be able to do this every day, however when I can I enjoy a sense of peace and serenity that I never knew before this program of recovery.
A Grateful Alcoholic
Ed
Member: Bob P
Location: Poway,Ca
Date: 9/2/01
Time: 10:35:28 PM
Thanks for the topic. Until I starte praying every morning before I started my day, my program was slipping like a bad fan belt. Since trying to stay in contact with my higher power on a more regular basis, and making meetings almost daily- I have found a new peace of mind. Going on my second month without a drink, and honestly don't want to deviate from what has helped me curb the urge so far. Thanks to everyone for their posts in other meetings; they have helped me during hard times, and hopefully I will learn a little every day.
Member: Donnie M (DOS 3-1-99)
Location: Short Gap, W.Va
Date: 9/2/01
Time: 11:10:11 PM
Hi, all and welcome newcomers. I`m Donnie and I am a alcoholic. Thank`s Ed for the topic. I to had know idea how or what prayer was when I first got sober. I had a concept of God, but I had blamed him for almost everything that had happened in my life. That was from sickness with me and my family. I found myself taking my last drink sitting on some church step`s two and a half year`s ago. I was sitting there after another suicide attempt. This for me was walking in the middle of the road trying to get hit, cause I was to much of a coward to do it myself. Like I was saying I was sitting on those step`s at about eleven at night and it was around ten degree`s, But that did matter to me cause this was normal that was what I thought. I sat there with twelve pack in hand I remember just talking to know one in paticular, but it must have been God cause I did ask him to either take me out of this world or to help me, now I am not going to say I saw a image or a light flashed or anything like that, but when I got up to walk home I stared to dump those beer`s out on the ground and I went home and dumped the rest off the beer I had. I got on the phone and called a rehab. I went there on my 31st birthday. I alway`s thought that was a little strange cause I never planned it that way it was God`s will. I have been thanking him and asking him for help from that day and I am not going to say it has been easy in fact it has been the hardest damn thing I have ever done, but I know if I were to take a drink today it would almost be a certain death, cause I do not think I have another recovery in me. Today I attend that church and I am doing thing`s I never dreamed possible. I`m a thirty three year old college freshman, I`m a father and husband. One of the greatest gift`s God gave me was for my parents to see me clean and sober before they past away. God will help you if you ask him I am still trying to understand prayer and why God chose me to live that night, but I do know one thing for sure this is a gift that I could never repay. I don`t know if I got of topic but I just love the AA program and God so much I hope it is the same for other out there, so thank`s for letting me share and GOD BLESS ALL.
Member: Julie C.
Location: Austin TX
Date: 9/2/01
Time: 11:42:33 PM
Hi I'm Julie and I am an alcoholic. I always try to begin each day asking for the gift of sobriety and turning my will and life over to the care of God as I understand him. Sometimes I forget and things get a little crazy, I learning to remember very quickly now. thanks for letting me share.
Member: Katrina M.
Location: CA
Date: 9/2/01
Time: 11:43:02 PM
WONDERFUL topic! I am Katrina, an alcoholic and I can say for as sure as I am sitting here typing this, that the ONLY thing that saved my life was that desparately uttered prayer I said to God (my HP) about 8 years ago! It went something like, " I cannot possibly quit drinking, it is totally and completely out of my control. Please take my free will that you gave me at birth, and for this one thing, MAKE me quit drinking." He did. Only I thought the answer would come in a huge, inspired feeling. Little did I know I would end up in the hospital, heart stopping once, lungs collapsing, 9 long month: 3 semi-conscious, 3 gaining weight and 3 more with intensive daily physical and occupational therapy! And you know what? It is still the BEST thing that ever happened to me! I have been sober 7 years. Yes, there is a discrepency here! Would you believe this die-hard alcoholic gal tried drinking again a couple times AFTER getting home? Just goes to show you how truly pathetic us alcoholics can get...oh yes, folks, " I am there(insane asylum, grave, homeless, etc.) but for the GRACE of God". The role of prayer....the ONLY reason I am alive and relatively (*g*) sane today!
Member: DJ
Location:
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 3:08:31 AM
GREAT TOPIC
~~~~~PRAYER AND MEDITATION~~~~
To me, this is a must. I pray alot, and meditate some. God is a big part of my life and always has been. and for that I am grateful.
Member: Rich R, s-l-o-w-l-y recovering compulsive person :-)
Location: Detroit (richr_srcp@hotmail.com)
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 4:10:40 AM
Ed, thank you for reminding me about step 11. 10 years ago I gradually got into the habit of praying each morning that I not drink that day and thanking God (as I undersood Him) at night. Then I joined a SECOND 12-step program and revised my morning prayer to 'that I not drink and bet'. Then I joined a THIRD 12-step program and revised again 'drink and bet and smoke'. Then (are you ready for this?) I joined a FOURTH 12-step program and revised again..'drink and bet and smoke and overeat'. Over the years I have added some other prayers, but you get the idea. :-)
Oh, I need to be honest about my 'prayer life'...it ebbs and flows and right now it's ebbing! :-(
Meditation has been much harder for me. When I 'try to meditate' it is very hard to concentrate and actually 'listen' to my HP. But at times, like taking a shower, sometimes I seem to hear this small voice pointing out the way my life should go. Don't know if that makes sense to anyone!
Thanks again for the topic and all the excellent shares so far...I'll be back later this week to read more.
Member: MikKG
Location: Australia
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 5:05:04 AM
Hi all, and thanks I needed to hear about prayer and meditation, the longer i have been sober the greater my excuses to find sometihing more esoteric than jsut the basics, and time and time again they have worked prayer(talking) to god and meditation (listening to god) the listening is the hard part for me, my alcoholism and any ism is the stinking thinking that goes on in my head over and over some days , and I have been sober 17 years and still it goes on, which tells me I only have and will always have a day and sometimes a minute at a time. So I need to change my actions to stop my head and asking god to help whilst sitting even for one minute is enough to start me back on the right track. Meditation has changed for me over the years, the one constant thing is that simple has always worked best and i have gotten away from that at various times, amzaing isnt it that saying "if it works dont fix it", well I am a defiant little alkie and you can be sure I will try. take care all of you and may your hp be with you and thanks for being here
Member: John H
Location: Indiana, USA
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 7:26:56 AM
Hello, Ed. This is from John,also an alcoholic. The program works, if one works it, having celebrated 15 years of continuous sobriety yesterday, Sept.2.
The urge to drink has disapeared, but I continue to have negative thoughts at various times such as resentment, self pity, and occasional anger etc. But this is the case of any and all of the human specie unless one has a connection with the Higher Power, which is more often known as God.
During the past 15 years and before, I have studied many spiritual sources, including the Holy Bible. Effective prayer apparently does not come easy for all, considering the limitless numbers of books available.
I keep prayer and meditation simple. The important thing for me is to keep at touch with God, allotting time in the early morn, before retiring at night and thruout the day, to silently repeat, "God's will, not mine be done" when disturbed by the distracting events of the day.
I'ved been advised that when one has difficulty makng connect with God, to just close the eyes, erase one's thoughts and wait. God will make connect. Of course do that in the morn or night, not at work or when driving! Have a good day, each day, for NOW is the important time frame. God's speed!!
Member: Jeff B.
Location: Northern CA
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 9:21:26 AM
Hi, My name is Jeff and I am an alcoholic. Prayer and meditation are two things that I have learned to try thanks to AA. I am sitting here at my computer with my 24 book my ruler and the prayers that I picked up from AA baskets and racks of literature as I have been on my AA travels and my life since I stopped drinking. They mean so much to me. I don't want to get goofy about it but they have been very important.
I start off saying the long form of the Serinity Prayer, then the 3rd step prayer, then the 11th step (ST.F. 12X12) - then whatever prayer is at the bottom of the 24, then I have a card wher I wrote down the part from the BB where I ask God to direct my thinking especially that it be divorced from self-pitty, dishonest or self-seeking motives. The next card I have is one that I found when I was cleaning out a box in my attic - I think it was from the first time I tried AA in Colorado -Humility Prayer: Lord, I am far too much influenced by what other people think of me. Which means that I am always pretending to be either richer or smarter or nicer than I really am. Please prevent me from trying to attract attention. Don't let me gloat over praise on the one hand or be discouraged by criticism on the other. Nor let me waste time weaving imaginary situations in which the most heroic, charming witty person present is myself. Show me how to be humble of heart like you. Then I thank him for everything He has given me Everything He has taken away and everything which is left. Then I ask him to show me what I am then what I could be. Then 7th step prayer. Then I ask some power greater than myself to make me willing, make me grateful and thank him for keeping me sober.
I realize that this is a long post and I sometimes scroll past the long ones. I am so thankful for my prayers that aren't mine that this seemed like a good time to pass them on. I believe that they (along with the BB,steps, sponsors, and meetings) have helped keep me from drinking for a longer period of time than any other in my life since I was 12.
Meditation is something that I need work at. After I pray I try to sit still for a few minutes and not think. I'm not too good at it. Sometimes I try to just breathe, it sounds simple. Then I try to remember that I prayed as I take my actions that make up my day. Many times I forget; but it is cool to remember. Anyway, Thanks for the topic and to everyone for being here.
Member: Andy
Location: England
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 10:31:19 AM
Hi I an Andy and I am an alcoholic, prayer and meditation is a big part of my recover. When I was not praying my programme was so hard to live. Everything seemed a chore. Although the first paragraph in the Just for Today should have helped me it did not, not until I prayed and meditated for the answer, it was then revealed to me that my life was being run on self will. Now I pray and this has lead me to remain techable. Thanks for the topic
Member: Stan R
Location: Coldwater, MI, USA
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 11:04:22 AM
Hi, I am Stan and I am an alcoholic. I would not be sober today without prayer and meditation. I try to start each day thanking God for granting me another day and asking that I receive the ability to not to want to take a drink. Then each night I thank God for another day sober and ask that he grant me another day to try and work my program again.
I knew very little about prayer and mediation when I came into the program (still don't know a lot) but was told that prayer was talking to God and meditation was listening for answers. I talk to Him a lot but have a hard time listening because I don't always hear what I want to hear.
But I am still sober and taking everything one day at time. Thanks to all of you for your comments and I should say that this is my first time on this web site.
Member: Lessa E
Location: Chicago
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 11:25:21 AM
Lessa here, grateful recovering alcoholic. Thanks for a great topic, Ed. For me, when I first came into the program, I had a hard time separating the highly ritualized prayer of the organized religion I grew up in (and still practice today!) with the prayer/meditation and communication with my HP that I've come to know in AA. The self I grew up with is more comfortable with a prayer already written somewhere. And yet, the prayers someone else wrote often don't tell the God of my understanding exactly what I feel I need to say.
What I've learned from the tables is to speak from my heart. And to end my prayers with, "Thy will, not mine, be done." I still have a selfish tendency to want things my own way. I still will tend to do the foxhole praying & sick bargaining I did when I was drinking, "If I only get the pay raise I want, I'll make more money and not have to do so much work. Then I'll be able do more service work." (I told you it was sick!!) I find if I do some program reading first, then pray, my prayers tend to be less self-serving and more self-centered.
As for meditation, someone told me that prayer was talking to the God of my understanding; meditation is listening. Well, I hear the God of my understanding when a fellow AA member speaks. I hear that same God talking to me reminding me to be grateful for my health and my surroundings when I go for a run or a walk in the morning. If I'm open, the God of my understanding speaks to me in a variety of ways.
Thanks again for the great topic and all the good comments.
Member: ann
Location: here and there
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 12:09:10 PM
what is the diferance in selfserving and selfcentered
Member: Joe L.
Location: Phila, PA - USA
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 12:12:47 PM
Hi All; Joe here, definitely alcoholic.
ED G.: Thanks for the topic.
I say definitely alcoholic, as I continue the same behavior and expect different results. I am a slow learner, and I'm ashamed to say that with 26 years, holiday weekends are always a disaster around my house. I almost hate to see them come. I'm wondering if it's something I set myself up for, from the beginning. For example, when I was a new guy I dreaded them - "3 days off, noone around the clubhouse, what will I do?" I sometimes think, that thought pattern has never left. They still scare me.
Now, to the topic at hand. If I did take time to pray and meditate, I don't think I'd over-react three times a summer. Truth is, I get like this every holiday. I used to start every holiday weekend with an early morning meeting and than go on from there. Somewhere, along the line, I got "weller" than that. I miss them, and think I should go back.
As Gordon from the "Steeping Stones" used to say - "Noone is so bad that they can't be used as a horrible example." I've often felt I'm a good example of how not to work A.A. Yes, I am sober, but I somehow always do it the hard way...
I'd like to thank you all for being here, and maybe next week I'll be first and bring up gratitude, Thanks again, Peace - Out...
LeachFtown@aol.com
Member: Joann
Location: Michigan
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 12:27:38 PM
Hi Everyone, What a great topic Ed. We all need to remember to let go and let God and turn things over to our higher power. We obviously can't do it alone. We all tried that and we have all screwed that up when we try to control things,people and places. So why not try something different?? You mean change ??? We, the alcoholics, do not like change. It's uncomfortable and it feels different. Turning everything over to your higher power, whatever that means to you, will benefit you in the long run. But once you turn it over, leave it there. I think we all have good intentions to let go and let God, but when things aren't happening fast enough or the way we would like them to happen, then we tend to take things back little by little, and end up right back at the beginning. AA has helped me to turn everything over to my Higher Power and has also showed me that I can't do this alone. I need God, meetings, and my friends from AA. Thanks for letting me share with you guys. I pray for peace and serentiy for all of us.
Member: Lorrie C
Location: Raleigh, NC
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 1:45:37 PM
I have a question. This is my first time doing an online meeting. I tried to read the guidelines, but like many AAs, I don't do instructions well. Is one supposed to read the past several days of comments to be a part of the online meetings. Or just read the most recent. I'm sure this question sounds stupid, but you know how it is when you're unfamiliar with a format. Thanks!
Member: Blair
Location:
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 1:52:19 PM
Hi everyone,Blair here an alcoholic,I grew up on prayer,the prayers you would say when you were a kid,in your household, in church and in your school, so I know about praying to God,and thats the way I always thought you should pray until I came to A.A.and I found that I didn't have to say all these prayers. I could just talk to my God the way I would talk to someone else,I don't have to get down on my knees to talk to God,I was told I can even get angry with God He's not going to strike me down,my God is a loving God.As for meditation it's sometimes difficult to do,but I believe it's when we listen to other people at our meeting or it could be at work or anywhere because God could be trying to tell us something through someone else God works through people.thanks for letting me share.
Member: Paul B.
Location: PA
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 1:53:43 PM
prayer and meditation! i didnt know how to pray so I asked my sponsor about it! i pray daily for the strength and courage to stay away from one drink, pill, fix or joint! I keep it simple by asking for gods help in the morning and thanking god at night. and I stay in contact with my sponsor cause left to my own devices I would be dead!
Member: DB
Location: KC
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 2:41:01 PM
Hi My name is David and I am alcoholic. Prayer and meditation, is a good topic and I have heard a lot of good things already. I remember what the eleveth step says that I am to improve my concious contact with God. When I am able to take my inventory and ask God to remove these things that block me off and then meditation comes by just saying a prayer over and over until my mind is focused upon Gods will for me and I am given the ability to carry out my day. and at night I thank God for the day and inquire what corrective measures should be taken on the things that Block me off from God and try again the next morning by thanking God again and prayer and meditation to improve my day again by Practicing these steps in my daily affairs. It works It really does God Bless,
Member: KD
Location: Nova Scotia
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 3:39:27 PM
Yes Joe L. I think I know what you mean! The only two times in the last years that I was able to quit for a month was the beginning of December...went through Cristmas without that close family member {well that's what it felt like) and New Years Eve the destructive,seductive family member was back....Topic related....I read the Bible ( a few verses) almost daily..I believe in God...I wonder about telling kids of Santa Clause..Easter Bunny..Tooth Fairy..etc. only to have them,us learn the truth! Could it be that most doubt in God comes from those lies?( Just wondering.I haven't given it enough thought or discussed it enough to actually come to a conclusion) Anyway...Yea Blair...thats how I feel too about talking with God..You talk or ask a question and when the reply comes into your head....thats him...I'm sure I've heard his words...when my now 17 year old daughter was 5,she was in a head on collision...when I got to the hospital and the nurse took me to see her she was asleep and her head and face were so swollen that I didn't recognize her,,in my HEART I knew she was gonna die...after about an hour of pacing and bawling by her bedside God spoke to my heart and said that she was gonna be OK..My tears of sadness turned instantly to tears of joy...I was still pacing but now thanking God more than I can put into words...I knew she was gonna be ok...Nothing had changed in the hospital to lead me to believe that...But God let me know... I know in the AA program that I'm supposed to place my inability to drink in Gods hands..But I'm quite sure that he has told me different times "I give you only one task...You give up drinking and leave all your other worries and problems to me" Any comments or suggestions would be nice? If I am rambling too much let me know also...Thankyou...take care
Member: Mark W.
Location: St. Louis
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 4:02:59 PM
Lorrie C.
Do it YOUR way, as does everyone here. In this forum, it is a good idea to know what is being discussed, and then add your input, but it is at times important to get something off your chest. Do so, many here have Experience, Strength, and Hope that God has given as a result of turning our lives over to OUR Higher Poser. By the way you asked, I feel sure that you are not one who will intentionally raise everyone's ire. Those that are and have been sober for a while are usually quite tolerant of newcomers, and those that aren't, need THIS topic discussion.
We all have a responsibility to share what we have, and it starts when we awaken and ends when we die. AA has given many of us a life that would not have been possible or even dreamed of had we not found AA, so you will find many here willing to help as they can.
Mark W. LMW007@aol.com
Member: LeeEllen
Location: MI
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 4:37:04 PM
Hello all - LeeEllen here and a recovering alcoholic. Thank you Ed G. for the topic.
When I first came into AA, I didn't pray and didn't like the idea of religion. The folks in AA told me there was a difference between spirituality and religion and that I could have my OWN personal Higher Power.
I found it difficult to even believe, let alone pray but was told to fake it til I make it. Needless to say that even tho' I was sober, I was miserable and just a dry drunk but I tried working the steps as best I could.
This went on for 2-3 years -- still miserable. I remember one night just being fed up with being so darn unhappy, and went into the bedroom, turned off lights, closed curtains, got down on my knees and sobbed, wailed, begged, pleaded, etc. for some help. It never occured to be that before, I wasn't willing to listen. This time I listened. During this session, I felt the most powerful warmth, calm, understanding, peace than I've ever felt before in my life. I can't explain the feeling, but I knew that at that moment, God answered me and was there. And all the while, all I had to do was be WILLING!! So simple.
Today, God and I have chats -- not always "prayer" sessions, but we communicate. I don't do it as often as I should and end up paying the consequences. But today I'm not alone even tho' no one lives with me, and the comfort is undescribable.
Thank you for letting me share, listening, and for being here. God Bless. Peace, LeeEllen
Member: Angela S. (avanta7@netscape.net
Location: Hot Springs National Park, AR (USA)
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 5:16:13 PM
Hi folks...
Thanks for the topic, Ed. Life is so hectic around here (a 160-mile round trip commute daily, planning my wedding, and doing a remodel on the house -- am I an alcoholic or what?) that connecting with God seems to fall to the bottom of the priority list. I'm lucky if I get to one live meeting a week, and I haven't been lucky the last three weeks or so...
And to actually take the time to sit down and be quiet for a few minutes? Don't make me laugh (or cry, as the case may be).
My sponsor says I need to become a "human being, not a human doing", and doing is all I do lately.
You all will probably see me post here a lot since cyberspace is where I can make contact with other people in recovery these days (my fiance is a normal person, supportive but completely nonplussed by the periodic crazies I suffer when I can't get to meetings).
At any rate, thanks for being here, and thanks for letting me share, vent, whatever....
Angela (07/26/1991)
Member: John H
Location: Indiana
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 5:31:47 PM
Ann, I'm not sure about the difference of selfcenteredness and self-serving. To me self centeredness can border on selfishness while self serving can be good--if we don't pick up that first drink, we are serving good to ourselves and others. If we practice self centerness, it seems to me that is what I was, placing more value in picking up that first drink than considering the negative effects it could do to others.
Member: ann
Location: florida
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 6:35:32 PM
Hello i am Ann a alcoholic - thanks for the topic Ed - it hits right were i live - the day of my last drunk as i was trying to get my act together - i had a moment of clear mind - knew things i had never known befor - knew i could not live and not drink - knew i could not drink and live
as i sat in my bathroom looking in the mirrow - i remember looking in my eyes and there was no one home - i did not at that point in time have enough mind to think - i wep from my inter most being - i remember crying "Please God Help"
that was the first time in my life i had ever asked him for help - that i had not also given him orders on what kind of help i wanted.
the only way i can explain what happened next is to tell you - God came walking thru my mind - all he said was call AA
if i had ever heard of AA befor i don't recall it.
i did as i was told to do for once in my life - and i am so happy to be able to tell you - my life has never been the same hell it was befor - i have good and bad just like everbody - but my worst day in hell now - is a day in heaven - when you but it next to my best day drinking
thanks for being here and listening to my share with your heart.
like they told me at my first meeting
don't drink
read the big book
and come back
Love to all and Thanks for my life
Member: Doug K
Location: The almost deserted shores of West Mi
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 8:02:09 PM
Hi everyone, my name is Doug, and I'm an alcoholic.
Every day I try with a humble heart to express my gratitude to my HP for the miracles that he/she/it has allowed to unfold in my life...the ones that I know of, the ones that I am unaware of.. and the ones I presently don't approve of. Then throughout the course of the day when I see something beautiful, or someone does something nice, or I get the opportunity to be helpful, or perhaps the opposite of these occur.. when I get angry, or my tongue wants to run, or I feel some impatience or intolerance creeping in - I take a moment to realize that my HP is standing right beside me offering me yet another opportunity to show my gratitude. The way I meditate is simply to quiet my thoughts and allow myself to be wrapped in the loving calmness that must be the presence of my HP.
Thanks
Member: Dan H.
Location: NV
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 9:26:32 PM
Hi, my name is Dan and I'm an alcoholic. It's important that I never forget that and that I "keep it green" where I came from. Thanks Ed for the topic. I've kind of been slipping on my prayer lately and this is excatly what I need to hear to get back on track. I believe god works through people and I thank you all.
Member: Sandi W.
Location: North Georgia Mountains
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 9:43:08 PM
hi everyone. my name is sandi and i am an alcoholic. i have been sober in the program of alcoholics anonymous for over 11 years. this topic is, of course, just exactly what i needed! recently, i have not been to meetings, have not been "working" this program, and have not been nearly vigilant enough about prayer and meditation. this program works, if you work it. a big part of how and why this program saved my life is prayer and meditation. i have just had a very devastating experience in my life and through it have seen that i need to reconnect to other alcoholics, this program and most importantly to my higher power, who i choose to call God. i am doing the footwork now, giving my life to God, and trying to reconnect. it's really should be no surprise that this is where i ended up tonight. if i can just remember to ask God for direction, that his will be done, not mine, he will be there! always! so after two of the hardest days i have survived since my early days of sobriety, i came home tonight, prayed and "listened" and let God bring me to this website and this discussion. thank you for the topic and thank you for sharing and thank you for letting me share and thank God that all of us found this program, these meetings, these people, this website and a God of our understanding who can guide us and love us and hold us in his arms as we go through "life".
thanks for letting me share! and thank you God for my life!
Member: Michael B.
Location: AZ
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 10:10:13 PM
Hi! My name is Michael, and I am a recovering alcoholic and addict, sober today only by the Grace of God and the Fellowship. Welcome newcomers! Thanks for the sincere shares!
Great topic, Dan. I feel blessed that, in the past year or so, my prayer life has improved noticeably. I've come to see how my earlier efforts to simply add prayer times in my day has led to a heightened awareness of opportunities for spontaneous prayer. I'm grateful for that!
For one thing, this improvement has helped me in dealing with any feelings of guilt I might have. On the other hand, I have struggled with making headway in meditation, although I continue to try. The major problem here is that health problems, e.g. pain, have distracted me.
This brings me back to our motto, "One day at a time."
Member: BethH
Location: Alabama
Date: 9/3/01
Time: 10:33:57 PM
Hi everyone--this is my first time here and ironically enough--that the topic is Prayer & Meditation--when just a week ago--I told my fiance'--that's it--there may be a God but he sure ain't on my side and he obviously couldn't care less about me or my prayers, that I give up on God---I am no longer wasting time on praying. Boy--that was a huge self-pity trip --eh? And another thing--yall think someone, somewhere trying to tell me something here? :-) Peace to All---------
Member: Tom E
Location: Puget Sound
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 12:22:59 AM
Tom - alcoholic. Good topic. In fact this exact topic has gotten me thru my 13th year of sobriety relatively unscathed. You see up untill last November I had accrued time working only the seven steps that didn't refer to God , Him, etc. I was going to live a better life doing it my way without the crutch of spirituality or God, then the bottom dropped out of my program. I was miserable, suffering from depression, and realized that there had to be more, even for an Agnostic like me. I found a Sunday morning prayer and meditation meeting where we read pages 84 thru 88 every single week. This meeting and the people in it taught me that a search for spirituality and a search for God do not have to be mutually inclusive. In fact one of the prominent members of the meeting is a devout athiest. I have learned that I can become spiritualy fit and serene, all the while leaving the door open for a higher power in my life. The "G" word doesn't scare me or irritate me like before. I accept the fact that the Big Book was written a long time ago in the only language our founders knew. Now maybe I can get on with those remaining 5 steps.
Member: GK
Location: Michigan
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 12:57:00 AM
Member: Annie K.
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 1:07:49 AM
Annie, alcoholic. Great topic, Ed, thanks. It's always so wonderful the way I always get just what I need in Alcoholics Anonymous, whether I'm online or in a f2f mtg. When I came in the doors of AA, I was a daily maintenance drinker. I thought this might work for some of you, but I seriously doubted that it could ever work for me. I had a bad case of the terminally uniques. I had tried to quit over the years, and had finally rsigned myself to dying a torturously slow death by booze. I got arrested and went to jail and was sentenced to 10 AA meetings along with a ridiculous fine and substance abuse classes too! I could handle all of it except the thought of attending AA meetings. And yet, after I walked in the doors, I knew I was home. For the first time in my life I wasn't alone. You knew me. You knew my story. You knew about that big God shaped hole in my soul. And you scared me to death. I didn't much believe in God and I was pretty sure that NO self-respecting God would be believing in the likes of me. You told me I needed to pray and I told you I couldn't. I said I didn't believe in God, and you said, never mind-God believes in you. You said you'd love me til I could love myself. I didn't think I'd live THAT long. In the beginning, I wrote out little prayers on 3x5 cards and put them on my bedside table because I couldn't remember the words to the Serenity Prayer (or any other prayer). Someone told me that Meister Eckert said "If the only prayer you ever said was "thank you" it would be enough." So I started saying Thank You God, for all the little things in my life, like miraculously not drinking long enough to pick up that 30 day chip. That was the beginning of a long and bountiful friendship with God. Today after a fozen years of practice, I can pray without choreography. I can believe in a power greater than myself. I know there is nothing bigger than God--no calamity, no terror, no drink and no drug. Today I feel God's hand on me and in my life and praying seems like the least I can do. And it fills me with so much joy to be on speaking terms with God! I was nearly killed in an industrial accident 7 weeks ago. By the 4th day in the hospital, I was writing a gratitude list and marveling at the prospect of having one more opportunity for growth. Sobriety has given me a relationship with a son who is now blessedly in recovery for the past two years. It has given me the chance to make up for things I have done and hurts I have caused and hearts I have broken. It has given me family all over the world in this fellowship. And it has given me a daily reprieve from alcohol that is contingent on my spiritual condition. And ir has given me a relationship with God that is the best thing that ever happened to me. Thank you, God!
Member: AM
Location: Portland, OR
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 1:12:50 AM
Hello. AM here, alcoholic.
I guess I was supposed to visit this site -- I attempted to attend two different meetings tonight here in the Rose City, and both were cancelled (no laboring on Labor Day!). I guess I NEEDED to read this discussion about prayer and meditation.
It's actually a poignant topic for me right now. I'm only on one day sober, after relapsing with like one week clean earlier this month. Part of the reason I went back out was the intense anxiety I felt about new situations and people I had encountered in my few days of sobriety. Ultimately, instead of "listening" or trusting that the correct paths would naturally unfold, I tried to force my will on others and ultimately got back into an awful cycle of self absorption, pity, and suspicion. That led me directly back to the bottle -- and ruined an important new friendship (at least, that is how it stands now).
So, the lesson I'm gleaning tonight is that I need to look outward and trust in an HP to show me the way that is healthiest. That will keep me not only away from that first drink, but help me to not take situations beyond my control so personally -- or try to control things I simply can't.
Anyway, thanks.
Member: GK
Location: Michigan
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 1:21:04 AM
Sorry about the blank post, I am new to this sight... I am not a religious or spiritual person and cannot pretend to be something I am not, which that in its self is what lead me to AA. I am almost 30 years old and the actions of my youth has brought on great consequences still to this day. This month will be 6 yrs since my last real bout with alcohol. It is hard for me to get to AA since I still cannot drive, so much of my sobriety has came from within... As you all know AA is a great thing, the spirit, the power and the help that the people there can give is almost overwhelming. there is not a day goes by where I don't find myself lost in my own thoughts about the hell that I put myself through. For what I have gotten from you I will forever be in debt. Thank you
Member: Rachel
Location: Texas
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 1:46:29 AM
Hi, I'm Rachel an alcoholic. I couldn't sleep tonight because of my nagging guilt of alcoholism. I have been sober before, and I want the peace of that again. This is the first time I have been to this web site and I feel my HP (God) has lead me here to hear this great message. Thank you for your stories and for explaining the difference in prayer and meditation. I will start both now.
One day at a time, may God's will be done not mine. Thank you for letting me share.
Member: Bryan
Location:
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 2:46:08 AM
Hi im Bryan and im an alcholic im in a country where there are no meetings and would like to find someone willing to be my sponsor can anyone help I would like to talk by email i just need help
Sorry this is not the topic but I pray there is someone who can help me
Member: Christina F
Location: Washington
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 3:43:57 AM
I'm Christina...most definately alcoholic. Today I have 6 days clean and sober. I would have celebrated 14 years on August 12th, but my relapse began around 3 months prior to that. I had been praying in an indignant way. Over the last 2 years, my children have come far too close to being offended against by one that eventually ended up stalking us every where, every single time we emerged from our front door. We opted to relocate as far away as possible last spring. In the process of trying to pack and sell our home, taking a loss as we had only lived there for 2 years, and trying to explain to my children why they would not be able to keep any of their friends (ever been stalked?) I reached a point of wanting vengance. I had prayed for guidance and understanding and some sign of what I should have done differently while combining a search for a spiritual answer with legal and counselling advice...I was angry! I felt utterly abandoned by God. But I kept on praying. Then one day I just gave up. I couldn't stand anything that I was feeling. I couldn't stand the thought of having to set eyes on that person even one more time, but children need to be gotten to school. One needs to leave their house on a regular basis for any number of reasons. I just gave up. I didn't want to feel any of it. And I thought that I could call the shots on how long I would numb myself to the events that were taking place. NOT! A whole summer has passed, and we have a wonderful new home, but we are also terrifically worried about how we are going to keep it at this point. Soooo much money has been spent on something that has done NO GOOD what so ever. There have been too many fights,, and we were both fools to think that we could decide any time we wanted to stop. I can't believe 13 3/4 years had not taught me well enough...or perhaps I needed this humbling experience to see that I was very young and had not lost anything by comparison to what I have come too close to losing in present time. And now I must find my way back to a spiritual way of living. No, I have not prayed much this summer. I am trying to find my way back to that, but I also need to find out where I was not praying right for all of this to have happened. Still, all that took place that led up to our decision to move makes no sense, but that I decided to give up and drink over it is the lowest blow. And I dealt it to myself. I know it's not God's fault, but I still don't feel his presence in my life. I'm trying really hard to just do this without that, and that's pretty hard. I miss Him!! I miss the coincidental appearance of small miracles that can renew a person's faith that they are, indeed, being watched over....... Pray for us, please...and thankyou for letting me share. Don't waste my research....it's still the same! No, this is not a cure!!!It doesn't take long at all for your drinking to go right back to where it was before, no matter how much time you have.. Just one more day will do it for me. Then I'll work on one more day after that. And then another....
Member: Dan Smith
Location: Florida
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 6:29:11 AM
Hi, my name is Dan Smith, and I'm an alcoholic. First I would like to reach out to Bryan, my email address is Gentlebrother@hotmail.com. On to the topic at hand, I found that for me, prayer is as simple as talking to God as if he were, and is, my best friend. this has worked for me for the little time i have been in this program. As for meditation, i just sit try to clear my mind, then as all these random thoughts go by i pick out the one, or ones, that keep coming back. Sorry about the break minor emergency. anyway i learned in this program that the word resentment comes from the latin word centari, which means to feel or refeel, (notice the absence of the word anger here) and in the way i work this program anything that i feel or refeel i have just naturally learned to stop, when apparent, and check it out. this seems to have and is still working for me. i also ask God to show me these things, good or bad asap so that i may address them. thank you all for your input again i hear my HP talking to me in the meeting. whether online or in a regular meeting room. thank you God for this morinings meeting and please bless all who are here to do your will, we are all powerless without your good and gracious guidance. amen.
Member: JoeE
Location: Ohio, USA
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 10:07:12 AM
Hi All. I'm Joe and I'm an alcoholic. Thanks for the topic Ed...for me, when situations seem to be chaotic and I know that I have my hands right in there trying to fix it... I pray that God will show me The way... God's will... it used to be difficult until, one day I called my sponsor and he remarked "You can start your day over anytime you want"... hmmmmmm?
<AM> re: That led me directly back to the bottle -- and ruined an important new friendship (at least, that is how it stands now).> If you are talking about losing the frindship of another AA'er, have you just assumed... or do you know that this person has "given up" on you... whatever the case... there are many of us that have had to try again and again... and many times I have sat at a table and heard someone else tell about going back out. Their experience keeps it fresh in my mind just how I was. Keep coming back. There are many friends in AA that came in with much the same attitude and problems you talk about.
Member: REveraert@aol.com
Location: Palm Springs, C.A.
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 11:29:09 AM
There's an old saying around the program ----"The only people who say that prayer don't work are those who don't practice it". Of course you do have to follow the rule! "we pray only for knowledge of god's will and the power to carry it out" Prayer for selfish ends is fruitless!!!
Member: Linda B.
Location:
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 11:43:42 AM
Hello, I'm Linda, I'm an alcoholic. I've been sober for 11 yrs and few months. It's so sad for me to say that people close to me have "fallen off the wagon." AFter 8 yrs, after 20 yrs of sobriety for them. I wondered why? what happened? The only thoughts that came to my mind about them is that they forgot to keep going to AA. As for me, when I was shocked (about them) I guess I was taking sobriety for granted, it really woke me up but more like an loud alarm clock waking me up. I want to voice my word out there, there is Hope, and there is a God out there, feel free to shout at him for help, he/she is out there, s/he'll listen to you and give you a sign that s/he is listening. Please remember, Keep praying everyday and be thankful for the rewards we get when we are sober. We are not alone in our sobriety. There are alot of sober people out there. Be strong. I'll be thinking and will be praying hard for all of you and I'll be praying hard for myself and others. Last comment, I learned a hard lesson: No matter how far a person has gone in there sobriety, never take sobriety for granted, keep working on your sobriety, and lets help one another. Linda B.
Member: Kurt J
Location: SC
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 4:47:20 PM
Hi all!!! I am Kurt and I am an alcoholic. I have been struggling the past 8 months. I was sober for 6.5 years and followed my wife ( 14 years sober) back out again. I blamed AA for awhile for letting this happen. However, I made the choice!. I would still like to report that I am still an alcoholic and still powerless over alcohol. The hardest thing is trying to start over. I know I just have today, but, I look in my fellow alcoholics at the meetings I have attended and feel ( know that I let them down). Guilt and shame!!! Anyways, enough of the victim pledge and time to begin anew. I during my relapse I continued to pray on my knees. - He answered when I was willing to listen - God Bless !!!! Kurt J.
Member: Anonymous
Location:
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 7:05:54 PM
The importance of prayer and meditation in our daily program;.. The goal of each of us who in all sincerity have turned our wills and lives over to the care of God, is to pray without ceasing. It means, to be instant in prayer in all we say and do, this is the mark of perfection, one that takes into consideration all things to the obedience of God. Our aim, is to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ in all our affairs; It is what it truly means to die to self, it is, A child like obedience that involves the highest excelence.
As to an outward meditation, the 'Imitation of Christ' is second only to the word of God in perfecting a life led solely by the spirit.
Member: Paula P
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 8:05:35 PM
God is the only way I am able to curb and control my drinking -- for it is he who does it -- and not I -- am currently at a low -- but it is one of my own doing --as are most of our lows . . . .
Member: Bev B
Location: Michigan
Date: 9/4/01
Time: 8:55:58 PM
Hi I'm Bev, alcoholic. Found this great site surfing unsuccessfully to find meeting sites for a vacation I'm planning. It's a great topic. Just wanted to express thanks for some of the comments on meditation. I liked the suggestion from John H in Indiana about quieting one's mind and waiting for God to make contact. What a great idea! Instead of listing all of my demands for God and then trying to FORCE myself to be quiet to listen for the answers, I can be still and allow God to connect with me. I also liked Dan S's comments about stilling the mind and giving attention to the thoughts that keep coming back. Best of everything to all of my AA brothers and sisters out there.
Member: Jack B
Location: Palo Alto, Pa
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 2:08:06 AM
Hi, I am Jack, a real alcoholic. Prayer and meditation are necessary for this alcoholic to achieve some form of serenity during the course of a day.If we are working the steps, this should have become part of our daily routine, step 11. Faith without work doesn't work. Each morning I start my day with thank you God for another day of life, then ask his Grace to help me to stay sober for the next 24 hrs. Each day closes with a thank you for another day of sobriety irregardless of what may have trnspired during the day.I have learned to be grateful even for bad days, some days its harder than others, but it is getting easier to accept life on God's terms on a daily basis. Thru constant prayer and meditation, my faith is increasing and that is the spiritual progress we talk about.I truly believe today that God will do for me, what I am unable to do for myself, in all my affairs, if I let him. Thanks for allowing me to share and God Bless.
Member: Fred M
Location: MD
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 7:28:13 AM
I'm Fred and I'm an alcoholic, sober today by the Grace of God and the fellowship of AA. Thanks for the topic, which is the bed rock of my sobriety. To Annie K in the Blue Ridge: Best wishes and thanks for your inspiring message. You have the kind of sobriety I admire and aspire to. 22 years ago, I was at the end of my rope. A daily drinker whose life was falling apart in all respects. I had to have alcohol due to my special needs. I wasn't like other people, my highs and lows were special and I had alcohol to help me with both. Unfortunately, no one else understood these special needs, so my family, job, health, and relationships were falling apart. Then one morning after a bigger than normal bender, I got on my knees and asked God to take over, told him I couldn't do this anymore, and please help me be a different person. A miracle happened that day. Since then, and through the discovery of the 11th Step guidance on how to pray in the Big Book, I have not had to drink. I start the day with a prayer asking for His guidance and to show me His will. I end each day with a prayer of gratitude for sending me all of life's blessings, including another day of sobriety. I've been through the loss of significant people in my life since quitting, plus cancer last summer, and I have not had a need to drink. I agree with Annie K all the way. Life's little speed bumps are God's way of giving us an opportunity to grow, learn and get closer to Him. Each special problem that comes in life is a chance to learn and become a better person. AA meetings are a perfect place to share what you have learned and listen to what others have learned, and going to meetings gives me a lot to think about and a chance to get out of myself. It was God's intervention in my life that saved me, and AA meetings that he uses to teach me. Thanks for letting me share. Fred
Member: Avril G
Location: Belgium via Barnsley UK
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 10:18:10 AM
(((BRYAN))) I wish you had posted your e-mail address, as I have some recovery sites which I could send you, and I am also on the AA-Mailers forum, another site I can give you, where there are lots of us willing to share by e-mail. If you drop me an e-mail, I will gladly forward them on to you.
goodallavril2000@yahoo.co.uk
Member: Fred B Good
Location: Delray Beach Florida
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 11:35:09 AM
Back to the topic. Prayer and meditaiton is important. It reminds me every day of God. When I dont pray I forget about God. BIG RPOBLEM! Praying every day improves my contact with GOD this is step work of the AA program.
Member: Karen W
Location: Colorado
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 11:40:25 AM
Thank all of you for your honest and candid comments. I had the worst "using again" dream that I have had in a very long time. It was even worse thna the initial "using" dreams I used to have when I first got sober. This dream really scared me and I woke up this morning trying to pray. Trying to talk to God and feeling too ashamed to even try. Thats how awful this dream was. The dream reflected me trying to get to an AA meeting but getting drunker and drunker too the point where I could picture myself as if I had been drinking for the past twelve years. In my dream I kept saying "oh God there goes my twelve years. No this can't be. Was it all for nothing." Finally I woke up. I can not tell you how grateful I was to God that it was all a bad dream. I woke sober, with a new day ahead of me. Last night I used three big chocolate brownies to eat "at" a friend - the same way I did when I used to drink "at" people I was resentful toward. I will pray and work today on my thinking and my sobriety. And be grateful for anchors like AA in cyber space. God Bless all of you.
Member: Josh C.
Location: Virginia
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 2:19:38 PM
Can we change the topic at all? it is no doubt a great topic, but i'd love to talk and hear about the bonds that form among so many different people who would normally never mixat these AA meetings. I have seen this to be a fantastic phenomena and i know each and everyone of you who go to meetings have experienced this. I just thought it would be cool to hear any stories about meeting new people to help us stay sober each day.
Member: Josh C.
Location: Virginia
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 2:22:38 PM
Can we change the topic at all? it is no doubt a great topic, but i'd love to talk and hear about the bonds that form among so many different people who would normally never mixat these AA meetings. I have seen this to be a fantastic phenomena and i know each and everyone of you who go to meetings have experienced this. I just thought it would be cool to hear any stories about meeting new people to help us stay sober each day.
Member: Josh C.
Location: Virginia
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 2:22:59 PM
Can we change the topic at all? it is no doubt a great topic, but i'd love to talk and hear about the bonds that form among so many different people who would normally never mixat these AA meetings. I have seen this to be a fantastic phenomena and i know each and everyone of you who go to meetings have experienced this. I just thought it would be cool to hear any stories about meeting new people to help us stay sober each day.
Member: Vickie H
Location: Alabama
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 5:29:52 PM
Hi, Vickie, alcoholic. Prayer? I had been taught in Sunday School about prayer and Jesus. I learned how to pray and about God in the rooms of AA. Today, I thank HIM for the blessings of bringing me into a group that is not afraid to speek about someone who has brought us back to sanity. I feel empathy for the ones who know who God is, yet chooses to stay dry and miserable. The sad part is they never know what is to be Happy, Joyous and Free, "One Day At A Time". May God Bless. Vickie
Member: Don R
Location: Savannah, GA
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 5:55:15 PM
Hi everyone, Don--alcoholic here. I hope everyone had a sober, yet fun Labor Day weekend. Keeping in mind that honesty is an important part of recovery, I have to admit that although I believe in God (faith), I've never actually heard Him. I have a somewhat embarrassing question--Are His answers to our prayers simply manifested in daily life, or are you supposed to hear some type of voice? Having only recently sobered up, and after experiencing many many years of intoxication and social withdrawl, I stayed away from Church ever since I was a teen-ager.
Member: Sue H.
Location: Alberta, Canada
Date: 9/5/01
Time: 6:29:52 PM
Hi everyone, my name is Sue and it's Day 2! Years ago I almost reached my five year birthday. It's a few years since that day and I want what I had then. I would pray for God to help me through the day or just drive to work safely because I was shaking so much. I went for a walk yesterday and broke down, praying for "His" help. I am so fortunate to have my boyfriend, family & friends - I don't want to lose what I have. Thank You and I'll be back .....
Member: Alfred
Location: Fl
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 12:51:25 AM
Thank you Ed for the topic. I've been thinking about this topic alot the last several weeks as it applies in my life. When we come to or back to AA we're usually pretty badly beaten up and defeated by alcohol and a healthy caution and respect towards drinking carries us through sober living for a while. Some of us a good long while. After a period of time, and even with regular attendance at meetings, we get caught up with the stress of everyday living and responsibilities that are normal for people who have re-entered main stream society. And at this point we start to struggle. The gratitude, humility, willingness, honesty, and open-mindedness aren't felt as strongly in our everyday lives. Everything's not quite as clear as I'm used to it being. I'm observing this in myself and I see a need to practice maintaining conscious contact with my HP in a new and deeper way. I've heard old timers tell me, "when change comes don't resist it, flow with it because there's your growth". I've got to take the time to do it! Thanks for letting me share and thanks for being here.
Member: Kathy
Location: Northeast
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 3:37:20 AM
This has been such a good topic. Many interesting posts which have been very helpful.
I have been in one of those spiritual "slumps" which many of us have alluded to. I get too busy enjoying sobriety and slack off on my prayer and meditation. Have spent most of today returning to the routine I've had for many years. In the morning I thank God for another day, my sobriety and my many blessings. I say the Serenity Prayer and ask only for knowledge of His will for me. I read the 24 Hour book and also a daily meditation booklet called Daily Word. Throughout the day I turn to God in prayer. He has not only graced me with sobriety, but also has seen me through three successful cancer surgeries.
My AA friends are my family. I went to my home group tonight - one week we do a Step - the following week we have a discussion. Tonight we were on Step 10 which was just right for today given the way I have been feeling.
Josh - thank you for the post. We usually stay on the topic for the week in the Discussion Meeting. However, if you go to the Coffee Pot and post you will undoubtedly have many replies.
Many thanks for beng here tonight. God bless
Member: Kathy
Location: Northeast
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 3:38:39 AM
This has been such a good topic. Many interesting posts which have been very helpful.
I have been in one of those spiritual "slumps" which many of us have alluded to. I get too busy enjoying sobriety and slack off on my prayer and meditation. Have spent most of today returning to the routine I've had for many years. In the morning I thank God for another day, my sobriety and my many blessings. I say the Serenity Prayer and ask only for knowledge of His will for me. I read the 24 Hour book and also a daily meditation booklet called Daily Word. Throughout the day I turn to God in prayer. He has not only graced me with sobriety, but also has seen me through three successful cancer surgeries.
My AA friends are my family. I went to my home group tonight - one week we do a Step - the following week we have a discussion. Tonight we were on Step 10 which was just right for today given the way I have been feeling.
Josh - thank you for the post. We usually stay on the topic for the week in the Discussion Meeting. However, if you go to the Coffee Pot and post you will undoubtedly have many replies.
Many thanks for beng here tonight. God bless
Member: Kathy
Location: Northeast
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 3:39:00 AM
This has been such a good topic. Many interesting posts which have been very helpful.
I have been in one of those spiritual "slumps" which many of us have alluded to. I get too busy enjoying sobriety and slack off on my prayer and meditation. Have spent most of today returning to the routine I've had for many years. In the morning I thank God for another day, my sobriety and my many blessings. I say the Serenity Prayer and ask only for knowledge of His will for me. I read the 24 Hour book and also a daily meditation booklet called Daily Word. Throughout the day I turn to God in prayer. He has not only graced me with sobriety, but also has seen me through three successful cancer surgeries.
My AA friends are my family. I went to my home group tonight - one week we do a Step - the following week we have a discussion. Tonight we were on Step 10 which was just right for today given the way I have been feeling.
Josh - thank you for the post. We usually stay on the topic for the week in the Discussion Meeting. However, if you go to the Coffee Pot and post you will undoubtedly have many replies.
Many thanks for beng here tonight. God bless
Member: Michael M.
Location: Northern Ohio
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 10:11:50 AM
Greetings to all. I always come to this forum late in the week and find more posts that I'd like to read than I can possibly read.
I was raised in a moderately religious Protestant household, but my parents turned against organized Christianity when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson took over when I was about 10. I've always had a personal relationship with what-I-choose-to-refer-to-as-God, but my background has complicated my ability to talk about this in the language of religion. I'm not an atheist exactly, but I'm sympathetic to those in this program who are. I remember early in my program days someone said, you don't have to agree that there is a God, you just have to agree that you're not it!
I have from time to time practiced Hatha Yoga and Zen meditiation, but today my "prayer and meditation" often just consists of counting our forty deep breaths in the middle of my hectic workday. People often say that AA can be a higher power for someone without a faith.
Several years ago I wrote this poem "My God, the gifts that fell my way the day I stopped resisting."
Member: JoeE
Location: Ohio, USA
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 10:51:05 AM
Hi All. I'm Joe and I'm an alcoholic.
<Don R.> With me, God manifests his presence in many different ways. It may be through what someone says (at a meeting or otherwise) or through a situation that I encounter that brings me in contact with Him.
A New Day
Dear God, Thank you for this new day, its beauty and its light. Thank you for my chance to begin again. Free me from the limitations of yesterday... Today may I be reborn. Give me strength and compassion and courage and wisdom. Show me the light in myself and others. May I recognize the good that is available everywhere. May I begin this day, sober, an instrument of love and healing. I surrender to You my doings this day... May your will be done...always. Amen!
Member: Susan W.
Location: Charleston, SC
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 11:17:05 AM
Hi, Susan here, an alcoholic. Been visiting this site on and off all week. Really touches a nerve with me. Haven't been able to stay sober more than a day since this past Christmas. At that time, I had 6 months. Not sure why I went "out" because I was very happy and had what I felt was a close relationship with my HP whom I call God. Since that time in December, I have prayed and prayed, to no avail. I can't seem to get the "total surrender" part again. From what I've read here, however, it appears that I must keep praying otherwise there is no hope. Thanks for all your comments. Looking forward to next week's postings.
Member: Sue H
Location: Alberta, Canada
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 1:58:51 PM
Hi, my name is Sue and I'm an alcoholic. Day 3 today - a special HI to Susan from Charleston! Last nite was tough - could not sleep! Today is better - said the Serenity prayer and just plain prayed for "His" help to stay sober today while driving to work. I am noticing how much of my spirituality I lost and I am trying to remember what I did before when I was sober in the program - it's coming back. One of the best things for me to do is be physical - walking is good therapy for me as well as the gym. I have yet to return to a meeting but I am thinking about it - wonder if they will remember me. I'd like to feel a little bit better about myself before heading back. Everyone, take care.....
Member: Chris
Location: Cyberspace
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 2:10:48 PM
Chris here, an alcoholic.
Regarding the topic, I believe that taking the steps, one at a time, and in order, is important to remember. If I have not done the first step first, I have a tendency to hang on to all kinds of issues, and would be better off if I just "let them go" or turn them over. Then prayer and meditation then help me too.
I cannot seem to surrender without acknowledging and facing my problems. Without facing my true unmanageability, I've really surrendered nothing. Matter of fact, I cannot seem to succeed successfully in any later step effort without first surrendering the un-workability of my life. This is a powerful paradox, and one that my childish ego refuses to acknowledge at times, since I live under the illusion that I am the master of my universe. But, I surrender my defects, the past, future, the behavior of others, and all things that I have little or no control over, and that unfortunately, includes me and my alcoholism. It is easier for me to just surrender my whole life than it is to hang on to that little urge that maybe I can if I just… No! Done, finished, game over man. If I hang on to those lingering notions, then my alcoholism will creep up on me, maybe not today, or tomorrow, but sometime in the future and will take charge of my life again. This is a deadly reality of our disease.
You might be wondering, why is this guy talking about surrender until he's blue in the face, if the topic's about prayer and meditation?
Because, for me, surrender and honest prayer and meditation go hand-in-hand, the yin and the yang, one leads to the other, and both are inseparable. The third step is a powerful resource for change, provided I have an open mind, and if not, I'll do the third step prayer in the book, and watch it work on me, a little bit at a time. I will do the steps like a robot if I have to, because I am willing so I can survive, but I know that to survive over time, the steps must be spiritual and meaningful.
Does surrender mean allowing others to walk all over me? No, surrender, for me, means dropping the fight with all things and all people and facing life on life's terms.
For me, surrender is the first step in faith, the faith in a higher power, something greater than me with the power to relieve my obsession. This surrender to my spirituality is oddly a very personal one, as I can see the truth of it in my own eyes. When I look in the mirror, ask and answer the question, "have I been true to myself or not?" The opinions and judgment of others, in and out of AA, may be quite valuable, but are of less importance to that of my real self honesty and relationship with my HP. As they say in the program, "To thine own self be true…" However, this is the area that I think can be the hardest for me to face, at times, as alcoholism is a disease of denial. Denial can be so powerful that the whole world can see my alcoholism, yet for some reason, my self delusion can be so powerful that I cannot see it myself. I have watched friends and sponsees die from their denial, and inability to surrender, again. This is something I cannot give another, but a need is so great for it that an alcoholic's survival will not come without such an understanding.
I pray for my willingness, and the willingness of others in AA. I ask God for honesty, open mindedness, and willingness, and that I may stay sober today.
Sober blessings!
Member: Janice
Location:
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 2:38:44 PM
Hello all, This has been an interesting topic. Thanks Ed.
I decided this year that I needed to quit drinking, yet something always comes around to trigger the need to drink.
The other day I received a horrible letter from a family member - I was in tears and yes went straight for the bottle. Why can't I stop? I pray, I have the desire, I am so tired of the fight to end this cycle.
I pray right now again, for the strength to stay away from drinking. I don't like the person I become when I drink. I am so disappointed with myself. I know that God wants to help me - but first I must help myself. A Greek Philosopher said "First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do" I would like to get on site someday and say I have been sober now for X amount of years and have the peace and serinity that some of you have talked about. Please God say that is possible.
Member: Michael M
Location: Northern Ohio
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 4:11:26 PM
Dear Janice, This too shall pass. Even the person with fifty years sobriety really only has Today.
Member: Chris H.
Location: Fla.
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 5:24:19 PM
I'm Chris and I'm an alcoholic/addict/ bulimic Prayer and Meditation---great topic...My sponsor is very big on REGULAR.. Schedualed Prayer and Meditation. I will say that I Have really worked on that. Even if it is one of THOSE days or weeks, I still go through the motions of my prayer and meditation...there are days that Imay only spend 5 min. , but at least I've done it, and I feel better. Then there are days that I feel lik I have "connected" with my HP. But just going through the motions give me a sense of grounding and serenity. I do get out of the habit, though, sometimes of hitting my knees the minuit I get out of bed and saying the serenity prayer...and thanking Him at night for keeping me sober...I need to work on that. I must say that regular prayer and meditation does really help on those Crazy days when I feel like I'm jumping out of my skin. GReat topic...See y'all next week!
Member: Chris H.
Location: Fla.
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 5:24:54 PM
I'm Chris and I'm an alcoholic/addict/ bulimic Prayer and Meditation---great topic...My sponsor is very big on REGULAR.. Schedualed Prayer and Meditation. I will say that I Have really worked on that. Even if it is one of THOSE days or weeks, I still go through the motions of my prayer and meditation...there are days that Imay only spend 5 min. , but at least I've done it, and I feel better. Then there are days that I feel lik I have "connected" with my HP. But just going through the motions give me a sense of grounding and serenity. I do get out of the habit, though, sometimes of hitting my knees the minuit I get out of bed and saying the serenity prayer...and thanking Him at night for keeping me sober...I need to work on that. I must say that regular prayer and meditation does really help on those Crazy days when I feel like I'm jumping out of my skin. GReat topic...See y'all next week!
Member: Patrick H.
Location: Phila.,Pa.
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 6:30:56 PM
People fail- God never does. I am sober through his grace. Believe it or not,my first two years sober-I prayed to a streetlight(fake it till you make it. Today whenever i'm really hurting, I go to the Ocean.......it brings instant serenity. I feel closest to the God that I understand when I'm there.
Member: elliemay
Location: beverly hillbillies
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 9:03:09 PM
im a lush
Member: elliemay
Location: beverly hillbillies
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 9:04:28 PM
im a lush
Member: Jim K.
Location: West Texas
Date: 9/6/01
Time: 11:02:43 PM
Hello out there! My name is Jim, and I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic.
I have discovered that in my own life, my program of recovery has expanded and become enriched as my prayer life has grown. This is a spiritual program of action designed to put our disease into remission and keep it that way. It says in our book that "...our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum benefit to God and to those about us." This is not in the book for shits and giggles. As a matter of fact, nothing is.
I believe the last three steps of this program are growth steps. We are supposed to grow in our spiritual lives in order to improve in other areas because we are SPIRITUAL beings. Everything is connected to our spiritual health, and our recovery is directly dependent upon our spiritual fitness.
This is my experience in this program. Some may refute what I say, and claim that a person can stay clean and sober without the spiritual portion. This may be true, but it was not the case for me. Thank you for allowing me to share with you.
Member: Connie
Location: California
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 12:25:06 AM
I can't fully believe in the kind of God who actually listens to human words and hears prayers in the way we humans think of "hearing." I have no idea what God is. Good thing someone told me I don't have to know. And I don't have to believe, either. So I pray without knowing or really believing. Something does happen in prayer, something benign, good. It is good to ask for nothing except God's will. It is even better to give thanks.
Member: David S
Location: Cincinnati
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 12:50:50 AM
Hi everyone I'm David and I'm a real alcoholic I know for me the importance of prayer is life or death. If I don't do certain things to maintain my spiritual condition I will drink again, and as the book says for me to drink is to die. BY the way somebody start a young peoples meeting 0-25
Member: jason c
Location: bellingham wa
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 1:50:09 AM
hello my name is jason and i know today if it werent for a higher power i would not be sober today and here in 3 days one day at a time god willing i will celebrate 6 years at 23 years of age i have went through 4 worst dreams sober and it is because of a higher power and prayer i know today when for my first 4.5 years i never beleived in a higher power and never believe i would but i found out i could stay dry but my lif3e did not change thanks to the fellowship i found out different thanks
Member: Joe K.
Location: Huntsville, TX
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 3:23:45 AM
I'm an alcoholic; my name is Joe K. It is because of a power bigger than me that I found in the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous that I am sober again today, and I am ever so grateful.
The Big Book gives us many examples and suggestions regarding prayer which I find very helpful. They seem to have worked for many who have walked this path before me, and it is my hope that they work for me also. So far, they seem to have successfully served their purpose. Prayer has been difficult for me at times, but I am assured that God loves me and sees me through those times. I have learned meditation techniques which have been helpful outside the fellowship. And prayer seems to be a waivering vigil. But, I grow in both areas. I don't know if there is a wrong or right way to pray, but I feel that the importance lies in the fact that I am talking to Him. Sometimes it is as simple as walking out the door, looking at the world around me, and throwing my hands up in the sky while uttering, "WHATEVER!"
Thank you for allowing me to share. I love you all.
Member: AnilG
Location: Mt Vernon,IL
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 9:08:41 AM
I am an alcholic prayer and meditation helps me to satay focused, relaxed and spiritual the very day to day stresses that led me to the brink of total distruction now I have learnt a way to meditate and pray it keeps me closer to God and concienceness.Thanks to all AA and alanon members.
Member: Stephen F.
Location: Rockland MA
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 11:26:18 AM
im a Alcholic, I've been sober a few 24 hrs and this is my first time "posting" on this sight. prayer has been a major part of my recovery since the first time I hit my knees on Easter Sunday night after returning from a f2f meeting. A women had mentioned at this meeting she was going to do something for lent. I was farely new at the time and had heared at other meetings that prayer was a part of peoples recovery. but something clicked that night. After the meeting, at home, in my fathers trailor I got down on my knees and prayed for the fisrt time since I was a child. when I got back up and into bed just lying in the dark with no one around I said "what was the big deal about this prayer b.s." What I wanted was a Bill W. flash of light. But in stead as I was lying there something went threw me that to this day is hard to explain. I like to disribe it as my soul being re-inflated. The rush that went threw me was incredable and it is that "high" that I chase on a daily bases. I've started and have end my days since that sunday night in 88 on my knees simple asking and thanking the God of my understanding, for a day of sobrity. And I have not found it necessary to pick-up a drink since coming to A A
Member: Ginger V.
Location: California
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 2:02:06 PM
Hello my name is Ginger and I am an alcoholic. I have no idea how I am going to stay sober I only know that I have to for many reasons, one being my own sanity. Thanks for letting me visit.
Member: Greg N
Location: MI
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 4:51:30 PM
Ginger, Just know that you need to stay sober to keep it together...otherwise nothing else is going to matter. An old guy in my home group has great advice - keep it simple, don't drink, and go to meetings. I believe in this approach and it works for me.
Member: Lia L.
Location: Burton, England,UK
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 5:36:42 PM
I,m Lia...i'm an alcoholic...How wonderful and mysterious the ways of my Higher Power! It was only this morning that i fell on my knees, in tears of broken pride at having to kneel...and allowed the unmentionable thought , that God is a figment of my imagination, that i require to illude safety....and here i am reading all the things i needed to relearn, to remember to accept, just for today. Thank you everyone for your sharing but especially Ed for the topic.and thankyou Michael B. for reminding me that physical pain is distracting and 'one day at a time' really helps!and 'chin up, Paula'...i'm praying for you and thank you Doug for the reminder to be vigilant with my prayers and meditation. Great meeting...thanks for the stories and everything.
Member: Lia L.
Location: Burton, England,UK
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 5:36:56 PM
I,m Lia...i'm an alcoholic...How wonderful and mysterious the ways of my Higher Power! It was only this morning that i fell on my knees, in tears of broken pride at having to kneel...and allowed the unmentionable thought , that God is a figment of my imagination, that i require to illude safety....and here i am reading all the things i needed to relearn, to remember to accept, just for today. Thank you everyone for your sharing but especially Ed for the topic.and thankyou Michael B. for reminding me that physical pain is distracting and 'one day at a time' really helps!and 'chin up, Paula'...i'm praying for you and thank you Doug for the reminder to be vigilant with my prayers and meditation. Great meeting...thanks for the stories and everything.
Member: Sue H
Location: Alberta, Canada
Date: 9/7/01
Time: 6:40:54 PM
Hi, my name is Sue and I'm an alcoholic. It's nearing the end of the week and I'm scared. Friday nights were usually the beginning of what the rest of the weekend included - alcohol. I've made a list of what I want to get done this weekend and keep saying to myself if you take a drink very little will get done. I have been praying too, when that feeling that I think I would like to drink creeps in my head to take it away and try and make me a better person. Take Care everyone and talk to you on Monday.
Member: Ginger V.
Location: California
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 1:50:00 AM
Well it is Friday night and I am still sober. I made it one more day. I pray that I can do the same tomorrow. Thanks for the advice Greg, it really made me feel good. Good night all.
Member: Ed G,
Location: Bryan
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 7:03:33 AM
Hi I am Ed an alcoholic, Prayer is a very big part of my recovery. Every morning I get up and pray to God that I will have the strenght not to take a drink today. Even in the afternoon I thank God that I have sucessfully made it this far in the day without that drink and my day has been full feeling. Before I go to bed I ask Godto watch over me and to help keep up the good work of staying sober. Without God I probably would not be sober today, I take one day at a time.
Member: markn
Location: Crange, Ca
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 11:36:24 AM
Hi, I'm Mark, and I'm an alcoholic. Prayer, for this alcy is not optional. Like "picking up the phone" or going to meetings, it's part of the reaching out and connecting that I have to do. Connect with God first, then others. Left to myself, and staying inside myself has never worked...never will for very long, either. Loved hearing all the folks that make hitting their knees part of the process. Humilty doen't come naturally for me, and kneeling is a great acknowlegment that we are addressing "The One who has all power"..not some peer or equal. Thanks!
Member: Jeff J
Location: North Idaho
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 12:38:48 PM
Hello All, My name is Jeff J, and this is my first time here so I hope this works. Prayer and medatation is a vital part of my recovery. But like a few I have read life has gotten in the way and I don't do as much as I should anymore. But I do consentaly talk to God, my prayers usually start with hey buddie, because God is my best friend. I am not religious at all and have a very personal connection with my god. One thing I always say is never let anyone tell you your concept of god is wrong. My God is powerful enough that he can show me what he wants me to beleive. I don't need somebody preaching to telling me how to beleive. My God is a fact not a concept, I can't prove him but if you lived in my shoes there wouldn't be a doubt. I thank God for life and sobriety everyday (maybe not verbally but from my heart) and to me that is the closes you can get to him is in your heart. I beleive God is more worried about my heart then my past and sin's. Since I am new here I would love feedback from any, my personal anonymity isn't that important(except on the level of press, radio and films) since I am here to serve my god and fellow humans so anyone that would like to E-mail me is free to do so, I set up a hotmail account for AA only, my address is imrule62@hotmail.com so feel free to E-mail me anytime.
Member: Jack and Tammy
Location: Wichita
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 5:37:11 PM
This is to Sue, from Alberta, Canada, hang in there, a week is a good start. Soberty is a great way to live your life. A week will turn into a month, months will turn into years...and your life will never be the same. Follow the steps, live the AA way of life...and Tammy says, "Love and Light!!"
Member: John O'L
Location: DFW Texas
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 5:41:16 PM
God has a plan for all of us, and I believe that we can discover His plans for us through prayer and meditation. When I was drinking, I made no effort whatsoever to discover what God's plan was for my life and what my role in this world should be. I already knew what my role in life should be: The most important person in the world! My destiny was that I should pretty much run the show and tell others what to do. Of course, since I was so brilliant, it would be the best thing for others to follow my lead. Since other people did not recognize that I was the "most important person in the universe", then I said "to hell with them" and I drank myself into oblivion. I resented them so much for their failure to see that I was a very special person! My attitude when I was drinking was that "I'll show them" by not participating in any of their schemes. If I could not be the boss,and the most important person, then I would not play their game! And, if things did not go my way, then by God!, I would not contribute, participate, or in any way be a part of the program. In order to discover God's will for my life and the proper part that I play in the universe and in others lives, it is necessary for me to pray and ask God, and then listen to the answer. Many times now in soberiety, it is my proper place to follow others in worthy tasks. Very often now it is not my duty to be the leader and by being a worthy servant I can contribute best. This is not what I would have called the answer to my prayers back when I was drinking - I so wanted to be the big boss and the fearless leader of men, that nothing else would possibly do. One scene in a movie that I will never forget is when Jimmy Stewart prayed for God to help him when he lost the 8,000 dollars in "It's a Wonderful Life" (Actually, his alcoholic Uncle Billy lost the money). Anyway, God sent a novice Angel to help Jimmy Stewart (George Bailey, in the movie.) George is shown what the world would be like if he had never been born. George is in a graveyard, staring at the grave of his older brother Harry. This is the brother whose life he saved back when they were both children. Later, his brother Harry saves a whole troop ship of soldiers by downing a Zero before it can sink the troop ship. As Clarence the novice Angel explains to George: "All those men on the troop ship died. Harry wasn't there to save them because, George, you weren't there to save Harry back when you and he were just kids" "You see, George, each life touches many others." When I pray and meditate, I understand that it is God's will that I share my experience, strength, and hope with the alcoholics who still suffer and those who, like me, are trying to maintain their sobriety. I no longer am the "Mr. Know-it-all" I used to be. I understand now that I know only a little and I am oftentimes wrong. But, what I do know is that I am certain that God's will in my life is that I do not drink and His will is that I assist others who are alcoholics to refrain from drinking as well. My life touches many others, in a positive and meaningful way, since I am happy, joyous, and free in AA. This is the answer to my prayers!
Member: Willow T
Location: Laughlin, NV
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 7:26:06 PM
The Power of Prayer is probably the only lifeline any of us really need. It has never failed me yet. Course, I've only been doing it a few years, but I'm awestruck every time I realize just how much prayer has enriched my life.
Keeping the faith and staying sober,
Member: bill
Location: sober 2 years now
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 7:48:04 PM
help i need money and a job
Member: bill
Location: sober 2 years now
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 7:48:12 PM
help i need money and a job
Member: bill
Location: sober 2 years now
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 7:48:19 PM
help i need money and a job
Member: bill
Location: sober 2 years now
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 7:48:27 PM
help i need money and a job
Member: bill
Location: sober 2 years now
Date: 9/8/01
Time: 7:48:35 PM
help i need money and a job
Member: Jeanne P
Location: Wisconsin
Date: 9/9/01
Time: 12:23:55 AM
hi all, thanks for sharing such great wisdom. when i walked through the doors of a.a. almost 18years ago who would have thought that God would be such a big part of my life. I was raised in a strict catholic family and like most people that i have talked to raised in that similiar way was fearful of God. He was a punishing God and so all the things i had done i ended up being resentful at Him. I was so angry. Then someone told me to find a Higher Power. Just something I could believe in that was greater than myself. I used the meetings for a long time until I was able to come to terms with my anger and resentment. I can still today remember the day I let go. I know now that God put thosed people in my life for a reason and that He worked to them to get to me. I felt an enormous load lifted from my heart when i finally let go. So almost 18 years later I still pray, say thank you and pass that message on to the newcomer. the power of prayer has lifted so many things and has given me the ability to meditate with a totally clear mind. i am able to be at peace now which is something i had lost many years ago. I also know that God continues to put wonderful people in my life. Just last week I was able to share my sponsors 40th year of sobriety at a dinner. That was a powerful message and God was definitely there. Wish you all another 24 hrs, not just sober but at peace.
Member: Alvin Leibel
Location: Canada
Date: 9/9/01
Time: 4:28:27 AM
Member: Alvin Leibel
Location: Canada
Date: 9/9/01
Time: 4:32:23 AM
It is impressive that most of you have found a way to deal with alcohol. Unfortunately I have not. No one knows what the trouble you can get into with booze! It is not only easy to get into but easy to deny. Praying seems like the thing to do, however answers are scarce!!!
Member: Dan Smith
Location: Florida
Date: 9/9/01
Time: 5:52:21 AM
Hello everyone, I know we are only supposed to post once a week, but in reading some of these I felt and overpowering urge to write something. It came back several times, and when that happens to me I try to pay attention. My sponsor taught me that when that happens maybe it is something that you need to address. On to the thought that keeps running through my small mind. Well actually two thoughts, One, it is exactly the way it is supposed to be who am I to question God. Two, Please look up the word altruistic. Anxiously waiting for a response to these two thoughts. Thanks for letting me share more than once this week. If you wish, maybe the appropriate place to respond is in the coffeepot section of this website, waiting for advice on that as well. Thanks again
Member: Commentator
Location: at his keyboard
Date: 9/9/01
Time: 7:05:01 AM
To Alvin:
It REALLY IS impressive that most of us have found a way to deal with alcohol. (Now, we are trying to find a way to deal with life.) I hope you can join us at your local AA meeting. Or, if that is too much for you, join us here. But, thanks for pointing out how IMPRESSIVE it is that most of us have found a way...that is exactly the topic that Ed G started this week with. It's neat that you ended the discussion this way.